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Stephanie Raffelock -- How Old is Old? - April 18, 2020
Stephanie Raffelock grew up learning about nature from her dad, a National Park Ranger. She embraces an active and positive mindset, and offers wisdom about aging in her podcast, “Coffee Table Wisdom”. We talk about grieving and love, and the transformational qualities of both. We also talk about the healing power of nature walks, especially accompanied by our dogs. Stephanie’s new book, A Delightful Little Book on Aging is a lovely and inspiring read. Find out more about Stephanie at StephanieRaffelock.com.

Transcription

Stephanie Raffelock  0:00  
Well, grief seems to be something in our culture that we don't want to experience that we want to run from. It's terrible. It's painful. It's awful. Get away from it as soon as you can. And yet grief if you don't honor her shows up in your life in unexpected ways. If you honor the grief, and you don't get stuck there, it propels you forward. Grief and love are the great transformative forces in life.

Nicole Christina  0:41  
Welcome to zestful aging where I interview thoughtful, inspiring and influential guests who are changing the way we think about what is possible in our lives, especially as we age. I'm your host, Nicole, Christina, psycho therapist and fellows, zestful ager and I love to hear from you my listeners. Leave me a comment on zestful aging calm. Our music is courtesy of Judy banker, a guest on zestful aging. Her CD buffalo motel is out now and you can find out more about her on Judy banker.com Stephanie raffle lock was so articulate and poetic about describing the experience of aging. She and I ponder the question just how old is old and she reflects on the importance of having a mindset of engagement and gratitude as we age. Stephanie's wisdom will leave you inspired and uplifted. Well As usual, I've got my jack Russell Sparky right by my side. So let's begin. We have a lovely interview for you today we'll be speaking with Stephanie Rafa lock and She's the author I have a delightful little book on aging, which is full of wisdom, and highlights the bittersweet experience of getting older. She believes in embracing the accumulating years with purpose, intention and joy. She lives in Austin, Texas, where she hosts her own podcast called coffee table wisdom. Hello, Stephanie. Hi. It's good to be with you today. Good to be with you, too. Let's just dive right in. Because we had a chat earlier about what would be the most interesting way to get started and you came up with this great question, which is, how

Unknown Speaker  2:40  
old is old? Isn't that a wonderful question? It's

Unknown Speaker  2:44  
an excellent question. And

Stephanie Raffelock  2:46  
you know, on the surface, you're going to get a different answer depending upon who you ask. If you ask a 15 year old, how old is old, they might say well, 42 is really old. If you ask Ask a 42 year old, how old is old? They might say, well 55 and it's going to keep shifting, you know, perspective, or perception, perception, colors our answer to that. But I think that the other question that tags onto that is what is old? Because I've met people who are my age that seem old to me. I've met people my age and older, that don't seem old. So where is that line? And I think it has to do with engagement and gratitude. that those are the things that keep us vibrant, you know, you call your show zestful living, there is a zest for life, a joie de v. A something that defines us that says, life is significant and important and beautiful to me. That's youth. Or maybe We should say, rather than divided in between youth and age, that's just life. And I think that every decade has its its own challenges. So yes, older age has some challenges, but so does being a teenager. I mean, can you remember the hormones jumping up and down and trying to fit in and it's like, oh, I would never want to go back to that.

Nicole Christina  4:25  
No, I there's, Oh, I'm sorry. I was gonna say Ashton Applewhite, the influential anti aging advocate says, aging is living. Right on Hmm. And I think that's what you're saying. We don't one day wake up and say, Okay, now we're old,

Stephanie Raffelock  4:45  
right? Because old then implies a destination point. And there is no destination point life continues whether you're engaged in it or not, until you die. So there is no destination point. And I think we can do To grow and develop and change, psycho spiritually until death.

Nicole Christina  5:06  
So here's here's a tough question, just something for us to ponder. You know, you talk about sort of being vibrant, being zestful and engaging and having gratitude, all of that, you know, you're preaching to the choir right here, and I'm sure with our listeners, but do you think that that's something that people can acquire? Or, you know, can they pick that up later in life? Or is that something I mean, you talked about in your book, and I love this, you know, you were a wild child, you had been an adventurer your entire life. It's not like you woke up at 50 and said, I think I'm gonna take some hikes now I better start yoga. Talk a little bit about that part.

Stephanie Raffelock  5:53  
Well, I in answer to your question, is it something that you can teach yourself? Yes, regardless of your past Think that you can decide to grow decide to change, value transformation at at any age. So, aging Well, for the most part is a mindset, isn't it? It's a matter of what's your attitude, and we can all change our attitude. Those are inner choices that we make. And then those inner choices, of course, reflect, you know, our outer world. So we've got attitude, adaptability, because adaptability is something that you need to learn as you grow older and something that everyone can learn as they grow older. And then of course, activity. The activity keeps us young and vibrant. I listened to a guest of yours recently, she was talking about being in the trees and how healing being in the trees were varla 40. Yeah, yeah. What a lovely, lovely interview that is, but I thought absolutely part of what keeps me feeling engaged with the world part of the vibrancy I feel is I'm out in nature as much as I can possibly be, whether that's a hiking trail near me, or that's a park, or wherever it is, nature is healing. There are answers in nature for us because nature models what the cycles are.

Nicole Christina  7:19  
It's like the original template or Yeah, I mean, we've all evolved from nature. So right, it's our home base. Have you always been a nature girl?

Stephanie Raffelock  7:31  
Well, my dad was parked naturalistic, Carlsbad Caverns, New Mexico, when I was born, and then later on at Glacier National Park, so I had siblings that, you know, took me out into the woods and put me on sleds and push me down the hill and yeah, so I have always loved nature in that way, and I've always found it to be very healing for me.

Nicole Christina  7:55  
Did your dad teach you about nature

Stephanie Raffelock  7:58  
somewhat, my dad was Kind of an animal whisper. What he really taught me was not so much about nature in terms of being outside, but he had an affinity for animals. So if we were in Glacier, there's a there's a family story, lore, legend, whatever you want to call it. He was up in a little cabin doing some kind of data research. And he would sit in this little cabin in the morning and the windows evidently didn't have screens on them and he would sit at the window and drink his coffee in the morning, and he said there was a bear that came every morning and he would talk to the bear and the bear with sometimes you don't get up on its hind legs. You know, I was curious about my dad.

Nicole Christina  8:41  
And these grizzly bears. These are not Eastern black bears.

Stephanie Raffelock  8:45  
Well, I do think this was a was not a probably a grizzly, I think it was probably a brown bear, although a great head but Grizzly makes for a better story. That is true. So this bear on the last morning that he was there, and he'd been talking to this Bear every morning it kept coming back. got closer to the window. My dad came home with scratches on his cheeks. How did you get the scratches on your cheeks? Well, he'd been talking to this bear and had leaned forward. And the bear in its curiosity had placed its paws on either side of my dad's face. And of course, it was so stunning and shocking. It was like, you know, suddenly it wasn't a zoo anymore. It was like, you know, this is wild animals. My dad pulled back and got the scratches on either side of his cheeks. Oh my

Nicole Christina  9:31  
god,

Stephanie Raffelock  9:32  
but I loved the story. And I loved hearing the story from him that he would talk to animals and it didn't matter if it was a cat in the neighborhood later on when he was living in a neighborhood or it was the bears on the mountain or taking me to a place where the deer drink so that I could see the deers coming to this little waterhole to drink. So that's the that's the gift of nature he gave me was this love of animals. You And I do love animals.

Nicole Christina  10:02  
When part of your you you talk really beautifully about prioritizing and that as a woman in her 60s, you're, you're, you know, you're aware that your energy is not what it used to be. You talked about waning energy, and then you list your priorities and one of them and you know, I have to chuckle because we share this that we, we both do this, that taking a hike with your dogs is is top on the list. Absolutely. Why is that so important for you?

Stephanie Raffelock  10:36  
Well, when I think that it's good to get out and move every day, and it's good to get out and move outside whenever you can. And dogs what dogs teach us is that we're, we're pack animals or we're part of the herd. You know, we're not meant to live in isolation. So when I walk with my dog, it's usually with my dog and my husband and we walk as a pack and we migrate, which is what animals do. They don't. They're not just stationary, like we are in a house. And there's something about getting out and walking in nature with my dog. That changes my mindset. It's it's hard to not be in gratitude. When you're walking with a dog. What do you notice?

Nicole Christina  11:20  
What's the experience? Like? I mean, I certainly, I totally get it.

Stephanie Raffelock  11:26  
But sometimes it's a little bit hard to put into words. I think for me, what I noticed is just the world around me things slowed down enough. I'm not in front of a device. I'm not in front of my phone or my computer so the world has automatically slowed down. I know my neighbors in this neighborhood in Austin, which is kind of a new neighborhood for us. We moved a year and a half ago. I know my neighbors because of my dog, because my neighbors have dogs.

Unknown Speaker  11:55  
And I'm sure they know the dog's names yet. I was just

Stephanie Raffelock  11:59  
Gotta say, you often know the dog's name before you remember the neighbors.

Unknown Speaker  12:05  
Sure. So

Stephanie Raffelock  12:06  
I observe the life that's going on around me. Whether it's my neighbors, or the the twins next door that are suddenly learning to walk, and they have two speeds on and off. There's no in between. There's something wonderful about that observation. It's like look at life going on around me. I noticed nature, whether it's the shedding of trees or the budding of trees, people are starting to put in a garden. Whether or not the wind is blowing off the lake whether or not it feels like there's a shift in the weather. It's a time to observe and within that observance, is the act of gratitude. just practicing saying thank you, I think is, is gratitude practice enough. Because life is going on. Wow.

Nicole Christina  13:02  
And it's an intimate I mean, there's a way like, obviously, if you're driving to the store, you're not going to necessarily smell the earth or feel the wind shift, or see the light change, you're gonna be going on an errand to get your groceries. It's a very different feel. I think you're talking about being fully part of fully present and absorbed in that very moment.

Stephanie Raffelock  13:29  
Well, as Joseph Campbell once said, he said, it's not really the meaning that we want. What we want is the rapture of the experience. Hmm. And so being in nature is to place oneself in the rapture of the experience.

Unknown Speaker  13:50  
That's beautiful. That's great.

Nicole Christina  13:52  
That is beautiful. And, I mean, I'm just thinking about sort of logistically after you've experienced this route, Do you feel more motivated or more inspired to come home and write is your creativity bubbling at that point?

Stephanie Raffelock  14:11  
I definitely come home and do things. But the truth is, I don't usually walk until I've written a couple hours.

Nicole Christina  14:16  
I see. So you have to do it the other the

Unknown Speaker  14:21  
other way.

Unknown Speaker  14:22  
Mm hmm.

Stephanie Raffelock  14:24  
But it is energizing. You know, any kind of exercise gets your endorphins happening, and it is energizing. So it kind of feeds on itself. If you're used to getting up and walking every day. If you're used to doing some form of exercise every day. You want to do more because it keeps us feeling alive.

Nicole Christina  14:44  
Yeah. You never regret having taken a walk, right? You never say wow, I shouldn't have done that unless you sprained your ankle. It's like wow, okay, it was sleeting but I did it and I feel you know, I'm gonna take off shower now and feel good. One of the things that really weaves through the book is this idea of the bitter sweetness and what you call the grief and transformation of aging, sort of the the lightness and the darkness. Can you expand upon that, Stephanie? Well,

Stephanie Raffelock  15:19  
grief seems to be something in our culture that we don't want to experience that we want to run from. It's terrible. It's painful. It's awful. Get away from it as soon as you can. And yet grief if you don't honor her, shows up in your life in unexpected ways. If you honor the grief, and you don't get stuck there, it propels you forward. Grief and love are the great transformative forces in life and grief bereavement is a cavernous place in which to explore the inner life, the depth of your love. We Don't grieve, unless there's love. So, therefore I would say grief is born out of love. And I hold it as sacred passage. There's grief in aging at every stage whether you know, once again, you're a teenager or your midlife or your this life. Grief at this age, I think informs us to a greater degree, the life that I have left to live is much shorter than the life I've already lived. So when I give myself to the grief and the losses, there's a kind of beauty to that. There is a balance between dark and light. When when you look at the Zen symbol, you see that one part of it is black with a little.of white in it and one part of it is white with a little.of black in it. You know, that's the that's the balance of life. It's never an either or proposition. Never, let's just be positive. Well, grief has positive aspects to it. And sometimes I think we just need to let our hearts open to the tenderness of that. We live in a time right now where our country is troubled people are troubled. I won't get into the politics of that, but it's palpable people feel it.

Unknown Speaker  17:23  
Absolutely.

Stephanie Raffelock  17:24  
And so, within that there is a kind of grieving and for me, what I've noticed in recent months is tears come very, very easily. What do I want to do with those tears? Do I want to push them aside? Or do I want to let them bathe me somehow wash away what hurts give myself to the tears and the experience of there is sorrow in life.

Nicole Christina  17:50  
So I love this idea of bathing. And there's you're talking about sort of a transform formative experience.

Stephanie Raffelock  18:02  
Yes. That that's the really the intention of loss and love is that they are transformative experiences.

Nicole Christina  18:11  
Have you always seen it that way? Or is that something you've had to learn?

Stephanie Raffelock  18:16  
No, that's something that I've had to learn

them. I was a person who pushed away pain or maybe didn't even know the kind of pain that I was in. We don't have to look very far to see that, you know, we all suffer in our own way. We all have wounds that we deal with throughout life. Sometimes I think you get like, one wound and it's like, that's your course lead. That's your coursework for your life.

You know, you get to work on this for your whole life.

And so part of my coursework or part of my life was to learn that all people grieve that grieving is a natural Part of life. And that when you give yourself fully to the process, that there are some goodies in that for you.

Nicole Christina  19:07  
Hmm, what an interesting way. Why do you think people are so afraid to allow the grief to be there?

Stephanie Raffelock  19:17  
Well, we don't want to hurt, first of all. Second of all, I think that we sometimes equate the vulnerability of grief with weakness. You know, we live in a culture where we talk a lot about winners and losers, and, you know, it's so dysfunctional and messed up. So I think those are some of the reasons that people don't, don't want to face their grief head on.

It might look weak. I don't want to feel the pain of it. Why dwell in it?

You know, and it's a balance. It's like, well, if you dwell too much, you can get stuck there. But if you don't face it at all, it presents another thing. problems. You can't live life in denial.

Nicole Christina  20:05  
It's there's I think about it, you know, we're talking about nature and this, it's almost like this organic thing that has to happen. You can't stop that natural process. And if you do, it leaks out someplace else,

Stephanie Raffelock  20:21  
right? Here's an example of nature. For a long time, the winter months were very, very difficult for me. I felt like I fell into a little bit of low grade depression. I didn't really want to be around people much and a friend of mine suggested to me that I read the per Stephanie story. And the Stephanie's story has now become my winter winter story. And for listeners who may not know the funny story, this is a one of the Greek myths. And PR Stephanie was the daughter of Demeter and Hades who is the god of the underworld decided he wanted her for a bride. And so he pulled her down into the underworld. And Demeter, who was like the goddess of agriculture, said, Okay, that's it unless you return my daughter, nothing's ever going to grow on the earth again. Well, this became problematic because people were, you know, going hungry. So a deal was struck, that per 70 would return every spring, and the land would bloom again. Now, the Greeks made up this myth as a way of teaching us about the seasons, that there is a descent and an ascent to the seasons. But I think within my own self, and I've talked with other women who feel this too, there is a descent into winter, that asks us to review the losses and the griefs of the year that asks us to sit quietly in the darkness with what we've learned, or with what we're discovering about ourselves. And then when spring comes, there's this ascent that you carry this new knowledge The experience into the world when things are blooming again. So that's an example of how nature reflects back to us. The idea of the circle of descent and ascent, grief and love and on and on the circle goes.

Nicole Christina  22:18  
And that's been helpful for you in terms of understanding Yeah,

Stephanie Raffelock  22:22  
it's given me a context in which to place the story instead of oh my gosh, am I really screwed up because I feel like this in the wintertime now it becomes a story and I can say to myself I'm I'm living the perception a story in my winter months. It's I feel like it's a beautiful and creative way of holding it

Nicole Christina  22:45  
really is. I think that people in upstate New York would really appreciate that because we get have we have gray skies for so long and people you know, it really is palpable people just are so Tired of being under cloud cover?

Stephanie Raffelock  23:02  
Right? It's the part of the dissent.

Nicole Christina  23:07  
I see. You know, another part of your book that I loved is your discussion about athletic wear. You know, as somebody who works a lot with body and you know, body image and folks struggling with eating and and this, I just loved your you know, it was, it was very cheeky.

Unknown Speaker  23:30  
Yeah, it was. It wasn't Yeah,

Nicole Christina  23:32  
yeah. Talk about your understanding of athletic wear and advertising and why it, it bothers us So,

Stephanie Raffelock  23:42  
well, advertising gives us a false idea about what aging is. You know, there's like there's a cutoff point with the women in the magazines or the women that you see on the television screen, that it's as if life ends at 45. And then we're going to put you over here call you out from the herd and put you in your own I'm

Unknown Speaker  24:01  
calling the herd.

Stephanie Raffelock  24:02  
Yes, I'm gonna call you out from the herd. So one of the things I noticed was I had been a, a devoted customer of this particular company for years and years and years. And suddenly I realized that they weren't advertising to me anymore. And I thought, well, that's not really fair. But the more I got into it, the more I discovered that this is what advertising does to us, you know, and, and I don't know why we just kind of like slink off with the idea that this is okay. Because I know for my own mother, what I wanted the most for her in her later years, was I wanted for her to feel good. And how do you feel good? Well, you get out and you walk, or you do a stretch class or you do a yoga class or something. So I still wear athletic tights and a T shirt. It's kind of my uniform, especially during the winter months. And I like clothes. that allow me to move freely and whatnot. And I've grown impatient and irritated with advertising that makes it look like older women shouldn't exercise or older women aren't sexy enough to wear our clothes and exercise. There's kind of a de feminization, a de sexualization of women, mid 60s and beyond. And I think how unfortunate to miss that opportunity to show that exercise really can be intergenerational. What should prevent me from doing the same walks that a 25 year old does? I had a girlfriend recently in Ashland, Oregon that did this big bike ride up by Crater Lake. She's 73 years old. She said a lot of young people passed me on the road that day. And I thought yeah, and I'll bet they didn't know they were passing a 73 year old, old So, I'm hoping that the athletic industry will come around a bit. I think that they have come around a little bit in terms of, you know, not everybody is a size four. There are different body types. We're like a bunch of cats. You know, cats are different. Some of them have stripes. Some of them are Calico. Some of them are solid colors. People are like that, too. So I'm hoping that as the time progresses, and I think this is a great time for women to speak out about this, that we will start seeing our moms in athletic wear ourselves in athletic wear, and it's just a given.

Nicole Christina  26:41  
I think there's a business here waiting for you.

Unknown Speaker  26:45  
loose in wild, inclusive athletic wear.

Unknown Speaker  26:49  
Oh, I love that. Just what I need is one more thing to do.

Nicole Christina  26:54  
Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah, you're talking about size, diversity, age, diversity. And diversity, and they're so behind the times because we know the demo demographic is shifting and that people 50 and over are, you know, there's money there. They're spending power, and they're really missing a huge opportunity and some of their ideas are obsolete.

Stephanie Raffelock  27:22  
Well, you probably see this and I've been seeing it a lot lately that midlife women and belong and beyond are really finding a voice. It's like this grassroots uprising. In the last election cycle. 2018 more women over the age of 50 ran for local state and federal office than ever before. This year a woman 50 plus one not only the Golden Globe for Best Actress, but the Oscar for Best Actor actors, like a real grown up woman Renee Zellweger. I think that that's happening more and more. So this. I mean, this is a great time to be a woman growing older in this culture. Because I don't think that we're as silent as we used to be. And we're sure as heck not going to Atlanta that Good night,

Nicole Christina  28:15  
huh? Yes. I mean, there you can feel the groundswell and it's it's really exciting. Do you want to talk for a moment about coffee table wisdom and what it's about and, and your experience of being

Stephanie Raffelock  28:30  
your Esther? Sure. Coffee Table wisdom is a podcast, my podcast, which launched about seven months ago. And I started the podcast to be a platform for positive aging, which is what my book is about. And then I was surprised that it became something else. Yes, it's still about positive aging, but I had no idea I would enjoy interviewing people and having conversation. With people as much as I do, I absolutely love talking to women who are doing interesting things, who are making a difference in the world who are sharing their strengths, their vulnerabilities, their insights. It, it's a delight to use a word that I use a lot. And it's in the title of my book. And the name coffee table wisdom came about because of the size of my book. And you've seen my book. It's literally little is not Koi. It's literally five by seven. And it's a slim volume of essays and vignettes about aging. And so I was lamenting to my husband one day, I said, I don't know it's just it's such a little book and you know, maybe it isn't a real book and I was going off on some awful realizing spin. And he said, Oh, honey, this is the kind of book that people leave on their coffee table. It's like coffee table wisdom. I love the name. So that is the name. And you can get coffee table wisdom wherever you get your podcasts. And I've interviewed some wonderful people and have more wonderful people lined up to interview and I hope you'll give a listen. Oh,

Nicole Christina  30:17  
I think are we, the audience will certainly want to listen and see if they're interested in this podcast. I'm guessing they will also be interested in yours because there's a definite commonality they are about putting good out in the world.

Stephanie Raffelock  30:35  
Yeah, yeah. And you know, I think that you should come talk on my show, too, huh.

Nicole Christina  30:42  
I would love to have you as I was, I would love it. I'd be honored. Stephanie, where can people besides listening to your podcast? Where can people find out more about you and the book and and what you do?

Stephanie Raffelock  30:57  
Well, you can go you can go to my website. Which is Stephanie raffle lock calm. Hopefully you have show notes because that's a mouthful Stephanie raffle lock.

But people can look look for this on the show notes page.

The book can be pre ordered now through either indie bound or amazon.com. The book is released on April 28 of this year. And

that's where you can find me.

Nicole Christina  31:28  
I'm around on you also do blog for 60 and me.

Stephanie Raffelock  31:33  
I have blocked blog for 60 and me quite a bit I haven't done much this past year. It's been so much getting the podcast going getting the book going, that you know you have to prioritize

Nicole Christina  31:45  
that is for sure. That is for sure. Well, I am such a you know, such a lovely conversation. I really appreciate what you bring to this whole discussion about how old is old and What you can do to continuously feel good even as your body is aging. The book is delightful. It's the perfect name for but it's also it's small but it really feels it feels substantial it feel you're tackling big questions and doing it in a very poetic way. I really enjoyed it and I'd recommend it. For my listeners. It's called a delightful little book on aging. And I want to thank you Stephanie for spending time today.

Stephanie Raffelock  32:34  
Nicole, it was just absolutely lovely being on your show and thank you so much. It was really fun to have a conversation with you.

Nicole Christina  32:42  
As we've heard, Stephanie Rafa lock is also a big fan of hiking in nature with her dogs, which covers the main behavior scientifically proven to help us age well. Movement, nature and pets. If you want to learn more about these behaviors and others that contribute to aging Well, you can hop on over to zestful aging calm and check out my web course. zestful aging. Thank you so much for joining us on zestful aging. If you like the podcast, please share it with some of your friends. I love to hear from my listeners, send me an email at Nicole christina.com It's no secret that everyone's feeling pretty restless and unsettled right now. Our lives are upside down and the future is feeling pretty uncertain. But if you're anything like me, organizing my stuff can help me feel a little calmer. It's something I can do to help me feel a little more in control and in charge of my own life. If you think decluttering could help you feel better and you could use a little assistance with that, check out the online course. developed with professional organizer and designer carry Lutheran, it's called too much stuff. And too much stuff is different from other courses or articles or guidance you may have used. We give you clear steps to deal with the clutter and the tools to help you face the overwhelming feelings and the emotions that come up when we're going through our clutter and a lot of those emotions are just feeling anxious or guilty or just basically flooded with a lot of different confusing feelings. The course is really practical, it's realistic. The lessons are short and punchy, and they're really manageable. We're not trying to set you up for some long exploratory, you know, super in depth, burden, burdensome experience, we want something really helpful for you. Right now, we all need help with our anxiety. So being surrounded by more calm and less chaos can really help. So now's a good time to clear out the clutter so we can focus on what's really important in our lives. We'll find out more at zestful aging calm. You'll see more about this under the web Courses tab. If you have any questions, just shoot me an email at zestful aging@gmail.com. Thanks so much. And stay tuned next week for another interview with a fascinating and inspiring guest.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai



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Udo Erasmus -- How to “Make Life Your Friend” - April 11, 2020

Udo Erasmus is a culture changer in the field of wellness. His educational background includes biochemistry, genetics, biology, and nutrition, as well as counseling psychology. Udo found his passion in the early 80's after being poisoned by pesticides, which led him to pioneer the healthy fats/oils industry. He presents at Tony Robbins and Deepak Chopra's events where he speaks about oils and peace. Find out more about Udo here: Udoschoice.com and theUdo.com.

Transcription

Udo Erasmus  0:00  
Each one of us can make our lives a little better by being maybe a little more fully present in it. And then adopting habits that are more in line with nature than the way we're living. And then sharing that with other people.

Nicole Christina  0:30  
Welcome to zestful aging where I interview thoughtful, inspiring and influential guests who are changing the way we think about what is possible in our lives, especially as we age. I'm your host, Nicole, Christina, psychotherapist and fellow zestful ager and I love to hear from you my listeners, please leave a comment on zestful aging calm and our music is courtesy of Judy banker who was also a show of guests on the show and it is off Percy de buffalo motel. And you can find out more about Judy on Judy banker.com well as usual I've got my loyal jack Russell Sparky right by my side. He's got his harness on he's waiting for his walk. And, and but we're gonna begin here in a moment we have a wonderful interview for you today. It's really educational, and inspiring. Today we're speaking with Udo Rasmus who's a culture changer in the field of wellness. His educational background includes biochemistry, genetics, biology and nutrition, as well as Counseling Psychology. Ludo found his passion in the early 90s after being poisoned by pesticides, which led him to pioneer the healthy fats and oils industry. And he is a frequent presenter at Tony Robbins and Deepak Chopra's events where he speaks out about oils and He's Welcome to the show odo

Udo Erasmus  2:03  
I actually got started in the early 80s. Ah ha because I got poisoned by pesticides in 1980. That was my wake up call, because

Nicole Christina  2:13  
Tell me about that. Tell us the story.

Udo Erasmus  2:16  
Yeah. What happened was I got married, we had three kids and my wife and I split up. And I wanted to kill something. So I took a job as a pesticide sprayer and spray them very carelessly for three years and the predictable happened, I got poisoned by the pesticides I was carelessly using. And then I went to the doctor, they don't have anything for pesticide poisoning so we can throw them in our environment, but we don't have a fix for it. That's the usual What do they call that freedom without responsibility? That is fairly widespread in industry. And, and so I was left to my own devices. And because I had background in biochemistry and genetics, I decided to look up health Nutrition, disease and nutrition in in Medline. And they were like, never like 16 million studies listed there. Of those 600,000 were on fats. And of those over 30,000 were on essential fatty acids, which are the good fats. And so I got focused on fats out of, you know, the the poisoning was my wake up call. I got focused on fats because it was the area that was most complicated most misrepresented and needed the most attention.

Nicole Christina  3:36  
And who were you before you were a pesticide? applier What was your life like before them? What were you doing professionally?

Udo Erasmus  3:45  
I was a gardener. Yeah, I did gardening I did a lot of a lot of blue collar work. I did logging and mining and farming, mixed farming, dairy farming, fruit flies.

Nicole Christina  4:00  
This is in Canada. And

Udo Erasmus  4:03  
yes, in Canada, I did a little fishing. And basically I did that because not because I wanted to become one of those workers, but I wanted to know what it was like to be in the shoes of those people doing those jobs. So I've always been a little out of the box and my thinking, is that was not exactly career move. But it certainly gave me a foundation, you know, and a certain amount of empathy for, you know, the things that help people's lives go.

Nicole Christina  4:36  
And this was after you had already studied biology and genetics.

Udo Erasmus  4:40  
This was after university I had, I had almost a master's degree I thought my, my thesis was stupid. So

Nicole Christina  4:49  
I decided to quit to the part you took the classes. You got to the part where you did the thesis and you said forget it.

Udo Erasmus  4:57  
Yeah, basically and then didn't know what to do. I never got a job in biology. And because there weren't any, and, you know, and then I so I just did all kinds of stuff. I traveled and lived in tents and lived in communes. And,

Nicole Christina  5:14  
and this was in Canada or Europe, you

Udo Erasmus  5:16  
know, mostly in Canada, we left Europe when I was 10. I was born during the Second World War, so I haven't had that as a memory to and, and we, we left Poland, with a communist chasing us in tanks and trucks, on roads where there were only refugees, mostly mothers and little children on horse drawn wagons. And the Allies were using us as target practice from planes. So these were the good guys. And so I you know, and so I became very serious very early that basically said, you know, when I listen to adults argue, said, when I was six years old, I said, you know, there must be a way that people can live in harmony and I'm going to find out how All my science and bio science and psychology and, and medicine and self knowledge, all the different things that I've looked into, we're always in service of how can we improve the quality of life of as many people as possible in the, you know, how can I do that in the lifetime I've got?

Nicole Christina  6:21  
So you were very aware that something needed to be fixed?

Udo Erasmus  6:25  
Yeah. Because if you look around and you know, look at how awfully people live those in their head and in their habits, and in the end, what we're doing to the environment and how we screw up relationships and how politicians can kick cat get over themselves and actually administer the affairs of the people. You look at all that says, No, man, there must be a better way than this a

Nicole Christina  6:49  
lot of dysfunction, right? And so you came to it organically from living out this this profound trauma.

Udo Erasmus  6:57  
Yeah, so yeah, so So each one of us has a role to play in that because each one of us can make our lives a little better by being maybe a little more fully present in it. And then and then adopting habits that are more in line with nature, then the way we're living, and then and then sharing that with other people.

Nicole Christina  7:21  
When when you say more in line with nature, yeah, what comes to mind first, about the ways that we are mostly out of sync with nature? Well, I think the first thing is, is what we're living we, we were born in light,

Udo Erasmus  7:38  
the energy that is life, the energy that keeps you alive. Without it's completely out of touch with it, because we our senses take us out into the world. And that's automatic, because it's for survival of the body, but going inward, to get in touch with our own being and discovering The piece that's there and the love that's there and the unconditional love that life has for the body. That journey inward has to be delivered. I see

Nicole Christina  8:10  
and do we get there through meditation, mindfulness,

Udo Erasmus  8:14  
are there other ways. It requires us sitting still, like right now, you know, I think Corona is the best meditation teacher the world has ever seen. Sounds crazy. But because why? Because we are now forced into social distancing. So that means we're getting out of everybody else's business. And now we have to find our own business. When you mind your own business when you and then literally, it's just a small step to sit down. Get quiet. See how still you can get. See how deeply still you can get. See how long you can stay there and, and discover what is in that stillness because everything you've been looking for In the world is actually already within you.

Nicole Christina  9:03  
And we don't have the distractions now. Yeah, so take us away from that exactly, because

Udo Erasmus  9:08  
we've always been too busy. And now, now we can do all those things that we've said we're too busy to do. So that's it. So this could be Corona could be the best thing that's happened in the world. All the great teachers spent a lifetime trying to get people to sit still and discover the beauty of their own existence, Buddha and Christ and Krishna and you know, just a whole bunch of them, right? They didn't get it done in a in a lifetime. And Corona is getting us to the point of being able to do that within a few months. So is that powerful, and is using opportunity and is using the least spiritual people on the planet to push us there?

Nicole Christina  9:52  
How about that? Is that that's absolutely fascinating. The paradox of that

Udo Erasmus  9:59  
Yeah, I know Isn't it? And who does thought, right? Who does

a virus? Oh,

Nicole Christina  10:04  
that's so interesting. I was walking my dog who I always mentioned in the introduction and I live in upstate New York, which is almost always gloomy. But as a little bit of sun came out and the bird song is starting up again and there was something just there about standing still and allowing that to penetrate that moment of absolute beauty and delight. Yeah, really makes a difference. Yeah,

Udo Erasmus  10:31  
the, you know, the, the life. The best life we can live is when we're fully present in all of our being. So that's physical and, and, and I would call it spiritual, but it's like basically being in touch with our life, energy, and our awareness, being aware of being aware, fully present in all of our being and our surroundings. That's the perfect life. And not lost in thoughts and funny ideas and beliefs in our head.

It's not that complicated.

Nicole Christina  11:08  
It's the Right, right. It's not that complicated, which makes it difficult because the simplicity can be scary. You know, having that quiet for people I know, my clients, they don't want to feel what they're feeling or think what they're thinking or realize what's gone on.

Udo Erasmus  11:27  
Well, lucky for us, when we when we go into the connection to life, there are no thoughts there. So in your breath, there are no thoughts in your kneecap, there are no thoughts the only place where their thoughts in the cortex of your brain and then a few other areas a little deeper in the brain than that, but there are no thoughts in the rest of your body. Why are we only in thoughts all the time? Why aren't we enjoying the ecstasy of what it feels like to be alive when we're actually in touch with ourselves? Oh, that's it's such so worth it. Repeating, especially now because I think there are a lot of thoughts and a lot of distractions where people are watching the news and the body counts all day long. And I'm encouraging people to have a bit of a media diet where all you really need is a few minutes and that you get well you have what you need. Well, the truth is, you don't even need a few minutes of it. But you know, I'm, I'm strong enough in my self presence, that I could watch the news and be okay with it and not not be become depressed. But if you if you don't do the homework that every wise person then every little child and every person close to dying, the Wisdom is get present in your own life, recognize the incredible gift you've been given. And enjoy that gift because nobody can enjoy it for you. And if you don't enjoy it, it's a wasted gift. You know that. That's that's the message. That's been the message of Every anybody who's had anything really uplifting to say, so always been the same message you already got it. Check in check in

Nicole Christina  13:09  
there. That's beautiful. Let me just ask you we'll get to that the healthy oils in a little in a few minutes because I have a lot of questions and I know my my listeners do but what is it? What's your day look like Udo well you know, you live in Canada. What is what is a day in the life of window look like?

Udo Erasmus  13:33  
Well, I'm not doing any blue collar works these days, although I do a little gardening sometimes. But basically, I'm 77 so I should be retired, but I love I love how incredible it is to be alive. I sleep until I wake up I pretty much get eight hours of sleep sleep. Because I'm not thinking about all the things I haven't done. That keeps me from being able to sleep. Sometimes that happens to people As they get older, if they haven't pursued, hey, you know, they regret like yeah, then they're anxious and then they're thinking and all this should have would have could us and you know, and honestly, maybe deep breathing before you go to sleep is a really good idea because when you're tired breathing will allow you to fall asleep just breathe and breathe consciously, you know, just follow your breathing don't push it, don't pull it just follow your breathing naturally. And if you're tired users fall asleep. So that's pretty good. So I sleep till I wake up. I eat when I'm hungry. I am. I have noticed as I've gotten older, that the the less animal products I eat the better it is, the better I feel. This is not based on a theory about anything, although it is also good for the environment. Is because animal regrowing animal foods is very labor intensive. But I saw I eat mostly Whole Foods plant based raw. And so it's basically fruits and vegetables, seeds and nuts. I take I take herbs and spices I am in love with the world of spices. That's a newer interest for me. Because most of the spices that they really like the really well known strong ones from anywhere around the world, whether you're talking about tumeric from India, or you're talking about black seed from the Middle East, or you're talking about garlic, mustard,

cayenne,

cinnamon, I'm just going through my cupboard in my mind's

Nicole Christina  15:43  
eye, I'm guessing Yeah, you're and you're interested in ginger as well. Oh, of course. Ginger.

Udo Erasmus  15:49  
Yeah. I. So all of those have antiviral, antifungal antibacterial, anti cholesterol. anti diabeetus anti cardio anti cancer anti inflammatory antioxidant benefits

Nicole Christina  16:09  
oh my goodness

Udo Erasmus  16:10  
Did I say anti inflammatory yeah I

Nicole Christina  16:12  
think you did that look like you tell me about you get up you sounds like you're refreshed you're hungry now what is

Udo Erasmus  16:20  
it that you fix yourself so I I'm a I'm a I really like tahini. So I get a tahini and glass jars organic tahini. That's my main that's, you know, if you think you need proteins, that's a good protein source. Because the truth is, all plants have proteins in them. So the idea that you become protein deficient if you don't eat protein, if you don't eat animal products, it's complete BS. And there's enough you know, the cow can make a steak out of grass. So there's enough protein and grass to make that steak. Elephants are made out of grass gorilla are made out of leaves. Right? Right. And they and 100 million Hindus no 300 million Hindus in the Brahmin caste have been plant eaters for 5000 years. never used animal products other than a little bit of collaborative milk for the probiotics in it. But it's like a tablespoon of of liquid liquid yogurt like is like it's mostly water. So, and you so you look around zebras, horses, you know horses have incredible muscles. You know when when you watch them run the way the muscles report, it's just like it's, it's, it's really sexy. So then where do they get the work they get all those muscles from out of grass. So the idea that we can't get enough protein eating plant based Whole Foods is complete garbage and it's advertising for the people who sell us something else and it's not as healthy Do that. So anyway I so so I, I digress. So I like my tahini I what I do is I open up the, the, the the jar, I pour off the tahini oil because it's an Omega six oil and omega six is not a big problem I put replace it with my oil ludos oil, which is a mixture of omega threes and omega sixes. And it's more energetic like it increases fat burning. This is a fact that increases fat burning and omega threes are the single most widespread essential nutrient deficient of deficiency of our time. So I make sure I get those with omega sixes in the right balance threes and sixes. I'm damaged, organic, and I mix it up and and I put in all my spices into that and I gave you the list but there's a few others that that I use to to acumen and I put some green tea powder in it. And so that's so that's a mix of, of protein oil and spices.

Nicole Christina  19:10  
A paste you make a seal Yeah,

Udo Erasmus  19:11  
it's it's I make it liquid enough so that I can drink it. I see. And then I can yeah and then I get I get cabbage and I love broccoli and, and carrots and sweet potatoes or yams actually. And what else celery I got in there and tomatoes and apples, oranges, grapefruit bananas, that's the fruit side. And I just eat those and when I eat the vegetables, I literally eat the vegetable and then take a swig of this tahini with good oil and spices in it. And I'm 77 I have no inflammation anywhere. I have no aches and pains except when I've been banging into something you know which I still do I still haven't learned to walk and, and so I have no aches and pains I have lots of energy. And so that's what I do and then I I watched the news I like watching the news because it's interesting to look at all the things that crazy things that people do of course on the news you only get the crazy stuff. You don't they never tell you they never tell you how much love mothers have for their children and

Nicole Christina  20:32  
how they sing us news I think

Udo Erasmus  20:35  
Yeah, I am but Canadian news. This is about the same only more toned down.

Nicole Christina  20:39  
Ah ha

Udo Erasmus  20:40  
yeah. And so and so but but because I and I do my practice before I get up I forgot to tell you. So before I get out of bed, I actually do a practice of checking in and deliberately being present in all of my bit my being and I joke with people sometimes I say you know when I wake up, I like to To check in to see if I'm still there. Because if I'm not there anymore, there's no point in getting out of bed. But that's a joke. It's like, but to me to start the day, in a place of contentment and peace and feeling fulfilled and feeling loved, because life loves my body unconditionally.

Nicole Christina  21:19  
And do you bring gratitude practice into that?

Udo Erasmus  21:22  
Do you know I don't, because all of the practices that we're told to do, they're always mental. And I have what I'm trying to do is walk out of the mind and go into the energy and in the energy, it feels so good that gratitude is normal,

Nicole Christina  21:41  
is that it's just part of it. It's like Dan,

Udo Erasmus  21:43  
right. But it's baked in exactly. And and I and I may not say why I'm so grateful, but I'm walking around smiling. Yes, and just feeling awesome, right? So if I don't need a mental formula, I prefer not to use a mental formula. Because sometimes when you use a mental formula, the words distract you from dropping a little deeper into the direct experience of it. So that's you know, but but am I grateful? Yeah, you look around I mean, honestly, if there isn't anything you can look at around you and not be grateful for it like my lights. Somebody came up with lights that I can use to light this place up when I do my video things right or in the evening so I can read. I have a little trampoline, somebody made that. You know, I can bounce around on the trampoline, get a little exercise,

Nicole Christina  22:42  
that's fine. I have one as well. I have

Udo Erasmus  22:44  
a I have a mattress that improves circulation. That is you know, I have a television set that I can find out what Trump is doing today. Because just about everything these days is about Trump or Corona. Right. So I can So I can do that and I, you know, somebody made the glass in my window and somebody made the wood that that's that's frames displace I live in, you know, and then I go out outside and I'm looking out the door, you know the grasses growing the, the cherries are just beginning to flower you know and you look at the air some something made air for me to breathe and something made grass, you know might makes the grass grow

Nicole Christina  23:26  
and something about all that you're living in a sense. Yeah,

Udo Erasmus  23:30  
fundamentally because if you if you actually pay attention, it's like oh my god. How did all this happen? And who's behind it and what's behind it? And how do I get to be so lucky to be able to enjoy both outside and inside everything. And then so and then I read I do quite a bit of reading. I love science. I'm not so big on on novels because I have a pretty fertile imagination, so I could make stuff up. So I'd rather read about how the world works. And I find because I find it absolutely fascinating. I'm reading about there's a now there's a book called The fourth phase of water. You know, water is usually solid, liquid or gas. But there is a phase of water that is jello like, and charged. And, and absolutely essential for life to be able to occupy a human body. So I've been reading about that it's really, really novel stuff. We didn't read it didn't learn it in university. And I'm reading a book about one one is called the rainbow and the word the worm, which is about quantum biology, which is like energy biology. You know, when when I studied biology, it means study of life, but we never studied Life in biology, we studied form and we studied function. We never I always thought I would have a glass full of like a glass jar half full of life. And that was liquid and shiny. That's what I thought I would get by studying biology. But we never studied life. In fact, we study everything but life in biology in the study of life. in psychology, we don't study the soul. We study the mind. You know, in medicine, we don't study health, we study disease. So, if you want if you want to live in truth, you may actually have to do some original research on your own, to pay attention to get out of the box to not just to question what you're told, because a lot of what we are told is not working that well.

Nicole Christina  25:52  
Hi, everyone. It's no secret that everyone's feeling pretty restless and unsettled right now. Our lives are upside down, and the future is feeling pretty uncertain. But if you're anything like me, organizing my stuff can help me feel a little calmer. It's something I can do to help me feel a little more in control and in charge of my own life. If you think decluttering could help you feel better, and you could use a little assistance with that, check out the online course I've developed with professional organizer and designer Carrie Lutheran, it's called too much stuff. And too much stuff is different from other courses or articles or guidance you may have used, we give you clear steps to deal with the clutter and the tools to help you face the overwhelming feelings and the emotions that come up when we're going through our clutter and a lot of those emotions are just feeling anxious or guilty or just baby Basically flooded with a lot of different, confusing feelings. The course is really practical, it's realistic. The lessons are short and punchy. And they're really manageable. We're not trying to set you up for some long exploratory, you know, super in depth, burdensome experience, we want something really helpful for you right now. We all need help with our anxiety. So being surrounded by more calm and less chaos can really help. So now's a good time to clear out the clutter so we can focus on what's really important in our lives. We'll find out more successful aging Comm. You'll see more about this under the web Courses tab. If you have any questions, just shoot me an email at zestful aging@gmail.com. Thanks so much. Right is for sure. Now speaking of that, that's a lovely segue. Because, uh, we're told a lot of different things about fats. And depending on you know, what the diet of the week is, or the fashion is, you should only eat bacon and butter

or

you should avoid fat like, it's it, you know, it's the devil. And you have a lot to say about fats and a lot of science. And yeah, I think you know, people really want to hear that because we're so confused and I am someone as you know, psychotherapy has to has some, you know, some kind of hold or grasp on basic nutrition, and I'm confused. So I'm sure the people who are not even in this field at all, do not know what to do with themselves right

Udo Erasmus  29:01  
fat right? So So we start with Sanders. Okay, so so the book is called fats that heal fats that kill because when I started studying fats the reason why they were so complicated is because the bad and the good were all mixed up and people just got confused. It just like it's good, no, it's bad. It's bad. It's good. So right so I said, Okay, if you understand that there are two opposite stories on fat, some of them kill you, some of them heal you. If you understand that as a foundation, then it's just a matter of figuring out which ones are the good ones and bringing them in which ones are the bad ones and making sure you don't, you don't bring them in.

Nicole Christina  29:39  
If they're advertised like this is 100% vegetable oil ad and makes it sound like it's the best thing ever.

Udo Erasmus  29:48  
I would say advertising is a form of lying that is legal. They call it sometimes the legal term for it is called huffing and puffing. This is actually Through huffing and puffing so you cannot be you cannot be held criminally responsible or legally responsible for huffing and puffing into hope for sales.

Nicole Christina  30:10  
I see. So,

Udo Erasmus  30:12  
so you have to take all of that with a grain of salt. But if if you look in nature, there is fat in everything in around every cell in every Apple you eat and every orange you eat in your broccoli that you like or don't like, in your, in your seeds and nuts. There are fats in all of those foods every every season. Yeah, every whole food has fat in it. So they're so they're part of nature and so are you. If you eat in line with nature, you will be eating fats. If you go on a fat free diet, it will kill you if you stay on it long enough. If you go on a low fat diet, you will get dry skin and then you get low energy energy levels and then slowly slowly you start falling apart. I used to tell people that, you know, how many of you have dry skin? This is a vegetarian, international Vegetarian Society a talk, right? So how many of you are? How many of you are vegetarian? All the hands go up because they're all vegetarians, right? Mm hmm. How many of you have dry skin all the hands go up. And so I said to them, the the mistake you're making on the low fat diet is there are fats that you have to have. And if you don't get enough, the first thing that happens is your skin gets dry because your skin gets the blast and loses and first, because in the rest in the inside of your body, they have vital functions that you can live without. So when your skin is dry, you need more of the right kind of fat. And they are looking at me as the Who the hell is this guy? Right. And so not all of them did it. But the ones who did some of them got back to me and said that was awesome because when I started taking the oils that you recommend. With omega three and six in them. My skin became nicer my energy got better my hair started to grow, I'm thinking clearer. And and then if you want to go on and on with it, I have less inflammation. My mood is better. pregnancies become less eventful. You know. So literally every part of the body improves when you go from a low fat diet to a right fat diet.

Nicole Christina  32:32  
I love that right. Now. talk a minute about coconut oil, which was supposed to save us. Okay, I think people got really excited about it. And now maybe it's the next best thing what Yeah,

Udo Erasmus  32:46  
no, no, no, it's this is coconut is the previous fad.

Nicole Christina  32:51  
Yes, exactly.

Udo Erasmus  32:52  
Yes. So coca there was. This is how it happened. Coconut is mostly saturated fat, the omega three and omega six The only two molecules from fats that are essential to your health that your body can't make that you have to bring in if you want to be healthy. Coconut contains almost none of those. But there was a guy who wrote a book about coconut who made every claim that can legitimately be made for omega threes on the basis of existing research. You made every claim for coconut without any research behind it. How do I know? I read the book. I I was shocked when I read it. And I went into Medline and looked up all of the claims he made, there was not evidence for a single claim he made and now there's research coming out that coconut fat actually increases LDL cholesterol which is the the unfavorable cholesterol. And that's just begun because now coconuts become very popular. But here's what's really interesting if you eat coconut Oil, your cholesterol, your LDL will go up. If you eat the coconut, your LDL will not go up. So So my answer is eat the damn coconut.

Nicole Christina  34:12  
It's a whole foods the whole thing not eat the whole food.

Udo Erasmus  34:15  
And it's pretty they think it's the fiber in the coconut that prevents your cholesterol from going up.

Nicole Christina  34:22  
Now I'm going to ask you another hard question as somebody who loves to cook Yeah, um, and I'm very interested in curious what you're going to say. course many many recipes. If you're a foodie and you want delicious food starts with putting olive oil and garlic in a pan and heating it up. Yeah, right see or whatever you whatever you're doing. And I'm I'm thinking from what you're what I know about your research and your your book. That is not a helpful practice.

Udo Erasmus  35:00  
If you love if you love cooking with oil, you should cover your ears right now. So you don't hear what I'm going

Nicole Christina  35:05  
to say. Oh,

Udo Erasmus  35:09  
yeah, really? And you know what frying is the single stupidest thing we have done in food preparation in our 200,000 year history. And the reason why is that oils are our most sensitive nutrients. They're damaged by light, they're damaged by heat and they're damaged by oxygen. And when you put and they need the most care of any of our nutrients and we give them the least care when you throw an oil in the frying pan. on a on a on a hot element on your stove. You are damaging the oil simultaneously by the destructive effect of light and oxygen. Add heat on the oil all at the same time. Now those oils, except for extra virgin olive oil, which is is made in a different way. But most of the oils we use have already been damaged before they went in the bottle before they went in the shelf before you bought them, because they're treated with drain Oh, with window washing acid, then bleached, which makes them rancid and then heated to frying temperature to clean up the stink. So those oils are already damaged, maybe up to 1%. And if you damage an oil 1% it's usually between half and 1%. But if it's 1%, damaged in a tablespoon, so that's not very much. In a tablespoon of that oil, there will be 60 quintillion damaged molecules. That's more than a million damaged mouse molecules for every one of your body's 60 trillion cells.

Nicole Christina  36:58  
And it's so yeah, that's crazy.

Udo Erasmus  37:00  
yourself and that are hurting and that's before you fry it. Now when you take that oil and fry it and you're taking two to four tablespoons a day, because that's normal intake, you know the damage that you do to your body goes up every molecule that is damaged is no longer natural. And we'll find a place in your body where it interferes with what's supposed to be going on there for health in that place where it is so

Nicole Christina  37:25  
you're you're saying to us the the standard process of cooking American cooking at least Yeah, I'm about this idea of you know, you start with the oil you add some shallots maybe some nice garlic you heated even before it gets to smoking point, which I know is not a good thing. And you pull it in your vegetable, whatever you're saying. That has got to be completely reengineered

Udo Erasmus  37:56  
Yeah, well not reengineered you need to take out your frying pan. Turn it upside down, hit yourself on the head with it really hard. So it's associated with pain and then throw it out because it will give you pain. The research is very clear if you overheat carbohydrates so we're talking grains even granola you know the so called health food, right? Or you overheat oils or you overheat proteins like when you fry them you know the outside is burned right? Or grilling. Yeah, any of it anything that overheats any any of the food, oil and protein and carbs increase your risk of cancer independent of each other when you overheat them. So cooking and water makes some sense because you're not burning the food unless you burn on the bottom of the pen. Mm hmm. eating raw is nature's mandate. Matches land mandate is fresh, whole, raw, organic, huh. That's how every creature eats except us and the animals we feed. That's the standard for health because your genetic program your whole entire system was made to function in line with nature and in nature because we're part of nature. And anything you do that gets you out of line will take away from your health. So the worst thing is is frying. The second worst thing is white sugar. But frying is worse than sugar. And then you do that you know when you when you fry foods and by the way, this is not just America, this is like everywhere. In Asia, they love fried food and the and the oil industry created that because they wanted to sell more oil because they were decay. We came out of a time when people cooked in water. And when I was a kid, we would throw the steak in. We cut it in cubes, throw it in the stew with the vegetables. In the spices that's how we ate our meat. It wasn't burnt wasn't burnt wasn't toxic tasted great, right? But now everybody fries because the industry is at home man. They're using water for cooking. Imagine how much oil we could sell if we could get to use oil for cooking. And not and we used to call it frying now it's called cooking. Cooking used to mean cooked in water and and cooked in oil was called frying. No these people don't say frying No, they say cooking so they've made they've made it sound like it's it's like a good thing. It's not a good thing.

Nicole Christina  40:35  
And there's you know, I'm thinking about like when you order out Chinese which I rarely do. Yeah, you're starting with the cheapest junkie is soybean oil. Yeah. Which is already problematic. Yeah. And then you're then you're frying it. Yeah.

Udo Erasmus  40:50  
And then they fry it over and over and over and over again. Right if you especially if you're doing deep frying and the only reason why that oil doesn't turn in To charcoal in that process is because you keep taking damaged oil out of the vegetables that you putting in there. So you're and then you're eating that you're eating the poison. It's like, okay, who came up with that?

Nicole Christina  41:15  
Right? And what is here, right? We talked about the fashion, the Diet, Fashion, the diet trends, smoothies. Talk to me about smoothies.

Udo Erasmus  41:24  
Yeah, smoothies. smoothies are good from the perspective of if you have no teeth, and you can chew your food. Now that's true, right? I mean, once your teeth all follow when you're like 80 or whatever, then you got to have something that that chops up your food for you. But here's the thing when you make smoothies, they shouldn't be smooth. They should be lumpy, these should be right and the reason why is that if you chew food, you don't, you don't make it smoothie, chewed. So you have lumps and you absorb some of the new treants and some of the nutrients you don't get, and your blood sugar doesn't go up because, you know, it's not all being released fast if you make smoothies. It's too finely divided. Yes. And you can raise your blood sugar with it, depending of course in when you put in it, so the smoothie should be lumpy. Yeah. And and then it and then it would work better.

Nicole Christina  42:24  
Fascinating. Yeah, I did this smoothie thing because I was trying to be a healthy healthy woman. I got the super fancy blender and I was getting terrible stomach aches. Oh, yeah. And my my doctor says, you know, you're not supposed to be drinking, you know, a 16 ounce glass of Yeah. vegetables in for

Udo Erasmus  42:44  
four seconds while you race out to do some stupid thing you shouldn't be doing in the first place. Yeah. Right. But here's the thing you if you do smoothie, you know it would work if you did a mouthful of smoothie and then swish it around in your mouth. Because that's actually an issue, chewed it to the smoothie. Yeah. Because you you want to in salivate it because that starts the digestive process and tells your body what's coming down the

Nicole Christina  43:10  
pike and your teeth for a reason.

Udo Erasmus  43:14  
Yeah, yeah, tea and saliva for a reason, right? So if you took it one mouthful at a time and chewed it and aided gradually over the course of maybe your 16 ounces over the course of two hours, then it would be better. I see then that you know, and of course, part of the reason why we don't do that is because we're all in a hurry. We think we have all these other more important things to do than eating. And, and so we just wolf it down, you know, and then flip the, you know, flip the container out right and and then race off and do something. What are you familiar

Nicole Christina  43:53  
I'm sure you are because you're the world's expert in this but one of the things that I've learned lately that I thought was Fascinating is how we approach our meal emotionally, really has an impact on how we digest and that if we're in a stressed out state, our metabolism really can't do what it's meant to do. Did you want to speak to that?

Udo Erasmus  44:16  
Yeah, when you're stressed out you're not supposed to be eating you're supposed to be running. right because stress is about survival and and stress is it triggers your your fight and flight response. So you're so then you so then you're in sympathetic nervous system, then you're in action. And in order to get the blood to your muscles, and and, and all the places that need that need, that need blood so you can escape. digestion gets turned off. Because you don't want to spend your energy on digestion when you're fleeing for your life. That's right. So the idea of being stressed and then eating it is it'll be hard on your digestive system you're supposed to eat before you sleep or after you see you're supposed to eat, when you're not under stress when your life is not under threat. Now part of our problem is that we live in, in self manufactured stress, either by the media, its manufacturer or by the government. It's manufactured or remanufactured in our own heads, by our fears of what if anxiety? What if, what if, what if you know what I mean? It's crazy. I'm sitting in my living room, and I could, I could adrenalized myself by just thinking, What if there was a meteor that was coming out of outer space? 60 quintillion miles away? And it's barreling at 18,000 miles an hour and it's going to come in it's going to hit me on the head. It's gonna kill me.

Right? That's like, just the total A fantasy.

Nicole Christina  46:02  
You said you had a good match and

Udo Erasmus  46:03  
I know so I can make up stuff like this right? I just see. Yeah. And it's one of the reasons why human beings because we're all pretty good at fantasizing and and sure and and what do we call it revising catastrophizing is one of the reasons why human beings need to take time to sit still get out of their head, get into their heart, get into their body, and feel the fulfillment of being just present. Without thoughts. Right. That's why that's important for us. Because, yeah, and And what if is, is every every anxiety has a motif in front of it. I used to be afraid of flying. First I was flying Okay. And then I became afraid of flying. Why did I become afraid of flying? Well, somebody dumped me. That's what That's what the start of it was. Somebody dumped me. And, and then I was like, and I paid attention to it. And I sometimes I cried on the plane because I was so afraid. And it was all based on what if we crash? You know, and I could have say, with with a little more discipline, I could have said, What if we land safely? Because that gets the chances of landing safely. It's like, thousands of times higher than that we're gonna crash. And somebody said to me, Well, you know, flying is safer than being in a car. And I said to them, well, it doesn't feel that like that to me. But the truth is, if you look at the math, flying is safer than driving.

Nicole Christina  47:45  
That's right,

Udo Erasmus  47:47  
but because I was fantasizing What if I was literally doing that to myself. You know, when I started doing public speaking, I was very shy as a kid. I could sit in A chair in an empty room. Imagine myself in front of an audience. There was nobody there except me in the chair. And I and I could completely adrenalized by just saying what if they criticize me? What if somebody know something? I don't know? What if somebody challenges me and I don't have an answer, I could literally adrenalized myself, get yourself going. And my professor said, you know, the reason why you get adrenalized is because you're thinking about yourself. If you were thinking about serving other people, in the best way you can, you would not be you would not be adrenalized so then I sat in the chair and I'd go back and forth between what if and adrenalized myself and then change my my thought to. I'm here to explain to you how oils work so that you can use the information to improve your own health. You know what the moment I said that my, my nervousness was completely gone. And it was literally I went back and forth sitting in the same chair in the same empty room, and doing the one and then doing the other just to test what my professor said was true. My psych Prof. I was like, Oh, yeah, that's right. And now I get up on stage. I'm not confused. I don't care. I'm not I'm not worried about whether they're going to whether they're going to criticize me or not. I've always been pretty good at answering criticism anyway. You know, and in basically, I've just going in there, why am I going there? I want to help people improve the quality of their lives in any way I can. Because I feel taken care of. There's nothing else to do other than to help people. And I'm not, I'm not nervous at all. I don't get butterflies before I get up on stage. People say oh, you need that. Otherwise you won't be a good speaker. No, I'm a really good speaker. And I don't get butterflies, but I'm present. I get really present before I go on stage

Nicole Christina  50:05  
present and you also have a great sense of humor. So that

Udo Erasmus  50:08  
helps. Yeah, well if you're, if you're present and you and you love your life, a sense of humor comes with it. You don't have to.

Nicole Christina  50:18  
Yeah, I wanna, I wanna ask you about where people can find out more about you your books your work, so give me some give me some ideas about that.

Udo Erasmus  50:31  
Okay, I have two websites one is called kudos choice you do s choice, kudos choice, calm. And that's and that's about the oil blend that I work with and digestive enzymes, probiotics and a few other things that are very central to health. I have another website that is the udo.com tha Udo, the udo.com. And on that, there is quite a few somewhere up We've got some courses, we're just building that. We just started a year ago to put that together. So we have some courses on that and some of my lots of videos, and just different on different topics, all kinds of different topics. Leadership

Nicole Christina  51:14  
and health. Okay, leadership. Oh, yeah, it's like the general. Yes. Yeah, always stick. You're

Udo Erasmus  51:21  
always based on nature and human nature. And so that nature and human nature, if you're fully present in your own nature, and you're in your surroundings, that will affect what kind of leadership you do that it will affect how you do business. that'll affect how your relationships go. that'll affect how everything works, because everything you do is an expression of your state of being. So you want to work on the state of being because when you work on the state of being you're actually improving everything that you do, all at the same time. Yes, that's right, because you're the author of all of everything that you do. So the more present you are in the deep, more deeply present you are, the more you have to give into every situation to the more you can help people. So I so and it's that's the, that's the focus, but I talked about oils and we're working on a digestion course and all kinds of stuff and then sometimes we talk about I did some videos on on viruses because of Corona and some of the things that that I do and so there's a lot of a lot of stuff on it, but it's a work in progress. Yeah. And that will be in the show notes for people ludos choice calm and the wdsu.com and they'll be able to find that let in and let me just finish something I started saying about oils. The way to use oils since we're not supposed to fry them is if you cook cooking water and once the food comes off to heat, you add oil afterwards, you could put it in hot sauce In hot soup in on steamed vegetables, but you want to do it after you do not want to put oils in a frying pan if health is what your goal is,

Nicole Christina  53:09  
that's really helpful and, and I think something that we can all work towards. And it will, I think changed a lot of our it's so interesting because I was on some kind of online cooking thing and they said, you know, he Cherwell until it just starts to smoke and I thought I don't think that's right.

No, because

Udo Erasmus  53:35  
you know, when you turn oil into smoke, you've changed the chemistry. Yes. And you know, smoke is carcinogenic. In fact, there's research that shows that cooks who spent eight hours in front of fright of a frying pan in a restaurant have four times the lung cancer of normal people who only spend maybe a couple hours in front of the fries fascinate four times because they're breathing in this This smoke these fumes, yes. And the oil is being damaged long before it starts to smoke. So the idea that the smoke point, it's complete BS.

Nicole Christina  54:12  
Yeah, no, I think that this will be really helpful for our audience. And I really appreciate that. Thank you so much for taking time. I know you're got a lot of things going on and I so appreciate your down to earth way of talking about it when I know that there's a lot of complexity but I love the way you just sort of, kind of simplify it for us and so we can take it into our daily habits and and start thinking about this more. I think critically what we're being sold and what we're being taught.

Udo Erasmus  54:46  
Yeah, well thank you for being an amplifier for a useful message.

Nicole Christina  54:51  
Thank you so much for joining us on zestful aging. If you like the podcast, please share it with some of your friends. I love to hear from my listeners, send me an email at Nicole christina.com. In this phase of our lives, we're more aware that our time is precious, and we certainly don't want to waste it. Taking care of stuff that we no longer need leftover from a life that we are no longer living. We know we would feel better with less clutter and more open space, but we don't know how to get there. If this sounds familiar, I'd love you to check out the online course I've developed with professional organizer and designer Carrie Lutheran. This course is different than others who may have tried because we give you clear steps to deal with the clutter and tools to help you face the overwhelm and feelings that come up. When you're going through your clutter. It's practical and realistic, and the lessons are short and punchy and manageable, but it has the power to change your life. We all deserve to live in a peaceful home without the chaos of too much stuff. Find out more at Nicole christina.com. And stay tuned next week for another interview with a fascinating and inspiring guest.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


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​April 4, 2020 -- Jo Blackwell -- “I’m Not Mad...It’s the Menopause”

Jo Blackwell is a writer, speaker and portrait photographer based in the UK. Having written her way out of depression during her own perimenopause years, she found that many of the women who come to her for portraits are 40 plus and often suffering from their own identity crises. Her photo project “Face it, Own it!” - the bare-faced truth about midlife women - is a celebration of the natural beauty of women 40 plus. Consequently, she set up “The Midlife Movement”, an online hub of inspiration and support, which offers courses and coaching via a friendly membership site, helping midlife women who feel lost to work out what’s next. Find out more: TheMidlifeMovement.com

Jo Blackwell  0:00  
What happened to me I contacted my children when I realized, and I said to them, I'm not going mad. It's the menopause. Yay. And apparently they had a little meeting and said, I think mom's gone mad.

Nicole Christina  0:27  
Welcome to zestful aging where I interview thoughtful, inspiring and influential guests who are changing the way we think about what is possible in our lives, especially as we age. I'm your host, Nicole, Christina, psychotherapist, and fellow zestful ager and I love to hear from you my listeners. Leave me a comment on zestful aj.com. Our music is courtesy of Judy banker who was a guest on zestful aging. Her CD buffalo motel is out now. You can find out more about her on Judy banker.com. Well, as usual, I've got my little jack Russell Sparky right by my side. So let's begin. I'm really excited for our interview. Today, we're going to be speaking with Joe Blackwell, who's a writer, speaker and portrait photographer based in the UK. Having written her way out of depression during her own menopause, he or she found out that many of the women who come to her for portraits are 40 Plus, and have been suffering from their own identity crises. Her photo project, face it own it, the bare face truth about midlife women is a celebration of the natural beauty of women 40 Plus, welcome to the show, Joe.

Jo Blackwell  1:50  
Hello. Thank you for having me.

Nicole Christina  1:52  
I'm so excited to talk to you today because this all started I think for you Struggling during your own menopause?

Jo Blackwell  2:03  
That's right. Yes. When I was in my mid 40s, I began to feel extremely anxious for no reason. It seemed. I got very, very depressed, my joints were aching. I went to see a consultant who told me I'd been a wheelchair by the time I was 60, which was not a very encouraging thing for someone to say.

And all these different things, I had all kinds of different health issues, which Looking back, I now realize that was part of the perimenopause. And if it all been put together, rather than treated separately, I think that I would have had very different outcomes to what I did at the time. But at the time, it was a very dark, dark place that I was in.

Nicole Christina  2:47  
Hmm.

And how did you come to realize that Wait a minute, all of these things are connected. This is perimenopause.

Jo Blackwell  2:56  
Well, you know, that's a very good question. I think come I think the main thing was I used to write for a living. And I'd given that up. This is part of the reason I was so depressed because I've taught myself payroll and accounts, which is not, you know, using the wrong side of my brain really, for me to be happy. And I was working in the family business. And, and I had become so isolated and so down, and I thought to myself, you know what I'm going to write again. So I really miss it. And I started a blog. And the blog was called Project 50. At the time, it's now defunct, but some, it started as me just expressing how I felt. And I found that I wasn't even expecting anybody to come back and, you know, connect with me in any way, shape, or form. But that's exactly what happened. And I suddenly realized that I wasn't alone in these things. And I thought, well, this is this is odd. Then I realized that actually, I see I'm not 4445 46 and that's when it starts. And of course, our parents didn't talk about it, did they? Well, you know, it's not something that was talked about, so I really didn't have Have a clue what was happening to me. I assumed that menopause happened when you were about 55. I thought you had a few hot flashes. I thought that was it. I didn't realize that there's there's something like 34 different symptoms of perimenopause, which can be attributed, you know, to your fluctuating hormone levels. So, with that connection, I did a lot of research. And that's the conclusion that I began to come to.

Nicole Christina  4:26  
I see. So you basically figured it out yourself? Hmm. Yes. Yes. And it sounds like you were also gaining confidence, getting the feedback from other women. I assume they're women, mostly who are reading your blog. It all started clicking.

Jo Blackwell  4:43  
Yes, it was mostly women. There were a few men that were responding as well, because I talked about getting older, as much as anything else, not just sort of women's issues, as it were. But some, I wrote my way out of depression because what I realized was what I was missing was connection with people and a sense purpose. And once I got that back, I start the fog started to lift with the depression. But some anxiety It is sometimes people don't realize that actually that feeling of dread that a lot of women get around about that age is caused by physical thing. And that's the the fluctuation of estrogen and progesterone. So and that was for me, that was a real issue because I just, you know, when you're when you're sort of, you know, dreading going into an interview or something, I felt like that all the time.

And it was really unpleasant.

Nicole Christina  5:35  
I see. So, you, you kind of stumbled upon this new life that you were doing the budgets and you knew it wasn't great, but it really took you go into a very dark place to say, wait a minute, I've got to figure something else out here.

Jo Blackwell  5:57  
Absolutely. Because I'm in a midlife crisis is crazy. crisis of identity at the end of the day that's that's the crux of it. And you know men go through it as well but they don't have this you know maelstrom of of hormonal upheaval that that women have coupled with the empty nest they can suffer that suffer with that as well. But some I think that women do tend to to suffer more when their identity because a lot of our identity if we have children can be tied up with, you know, being with the children and and launching them into life. And it all comes at the same time. So it was Yeah, I wrote my way out of that. And you have to go back to your question now. So I started to ramble.

Nicole Christina  6:42  
I have a terrible habit of doing

Jo Blackwell  6:46  
you know, I find that my brain will go walkabout while I'm speaking. And I'm thinking to myself, and you can leave this in because I'm sure a lot of women will understand. I'm thinking myself, no, don't go there.

Nicole Christina  6:59  
I need you

I had a funny experience many years ago, but I was trying to form a question with a client, you know, in therapy, and I was treating them and I went on such a walk about that they looked at me blankly and said, What was the question? And I was thinking, I'm not really sure I know. Let's, let's start again.

Jo Blackwell  7:28  
But that sort of thing. Um, it's funny in retrospect, but

at the time, you know, when it's your profession to do things like that, it undermines your confidence, doesn't it?

Stop sort of having these incidents? That's really funny. Yeah, you

Nicole Christina  7:40  
just realize you're talking and you're not sure where you're going with it? Yes. No end goal.

Jo Blackwell  7:47  
Well, I'm speaking I was waffling a bit, cuz obviously I can't remember the question. The question.

I always get the question.

Nicole Christina  7:54  
And you're wondering, is it gonna come back is it Yeah, so I'm just holding my hands up. Now. Say No. No, it's not coming back up, nested.

That's, that's so funny. So this idea of perimenopause, and I'm sure you're familiar because your country seems to be a little ahead of the curve and asking these questions and there's many women in the UK that of, you know, I'm familiar with who have done sort of similar things kind of stumbled into their new life by writing or maybe taking a jog or getting on their paddleboard, but it wasn't planned. They didn't say, Oh, you know, what I need to do is this and this and this, it sort of starts small and then feels good and then develops a life of its own.

Jo Blackwell  8:44  
Well, I stumbled into becoming a photographer, because the while I was writing this blog, I had this idea that I would go and interview people who were in their 50s or so just before my 50th birthday, and I thought if I can get a little bit of inspiration from people who Really rocking their 50s that will help the people that are reading my blog as well, then I thought it's going to be a bit boring, I need to, you know, I need to have some pictures as well. So I went off on this camera course with my husband's I borrowed my husband's camera, which had never been off auto and I didn't know how to turn it on. And when I got there, I'm looking around, I'm thinking, gosh, they've got big cameras, and I realized I'd accidentally put myself onto a course for professional photographers. Oh my. So I mean one thing about getting older, you don't get quite as embarrassed as you're used to. So I just kind of sidled up to the instructor and said, Can you help me turn this on. But I picked the camera up and I looked through it and it took my breath away because what I could see through the camera I couldn't see through my own eyes at the time. And the woman that I was photographing, I could see her strength and her character and every age that she'd been in is going to be just in those flickering, micro expressions that we all have and I was just hooked. And and I came home and I was raving about it. You know, my husband said, Oh, for goodness sake, you're not going to be a photographer as well now, are you? Which tells you something about me?

And I said, No, no, of course not. And I thought to myself, I am.

And that's what I did.

Nicole Christina  10:19  
You've had a complete turn about, I mean, after menopause or perimenopause, your life has changed so significantly.

Jo Blackwell  10:29  
Absolutely. I'm 10 years now, self employment. It's been the biggest self development program that I could have ever gone on. And I love it. And I don't know what, you know, I'm so much happier in my 50s. I mean, I would never have believed that that could be the case, in my in my 40s. And I'm 60 next year, and I'm really looking forward to the next decade. But what I found was that the women that come to me they were sort of, you know, telling me these stories of loss and you know, then feeling lost Not knowing where they're going feeling maybe a bit like a dinosaur at work was one expression that somebody used, you know, feeling she was being promoted over because of her age. And, you know, then they would contact me afterwards and say, it wasn't just a photo session, I've, you know, I've applied for a job or I've talked to my husband about this or whatever. So just our conversations were sort of opening doors, but all we were doing sharing experience. And I thought, Well, you know what, I'm a boutique photographer. I don't shoot more than once a week and I want to reach more women because I know how this feels being in this hole and not realizing that it's, it's purely a hormonal thing. And when it happened to me, I contacted my children when I realized and said to them, I'm not going

mad. It's the menopause. Yay.

And apparently they had a little meeting and said, I think mom's gone mad.

I was just so relieved to have Have an explanation, you know that it wasn't, wasn't me. But that's how the midlife movement came about we, you know, I set up this online community and and that's just growing now. And that takes up an awful lot of my working time. Hmm,

Nicole Christina  12:16  
what's your favorite part of doing that movement?

Jo Blackwell  12:20  
Or the connection with other women? For sure, as as I've gone through my 50s my friendships, with, with women, my age, have become so important to me. I have so much admiration for us all. Because nobody, nobody gets to this age without experiencing loss and tragedy and maybe, you know, ill health or whatever. And I just feel that we're, we're a force to be reckoned with. And in this world, you know, we tend to be pushed to one side we are expected to become invisible. We have so much to offer. So my mission in life is To help change attitudes to aging one woman at a time, because it comes from within, we have to see ourselves. You know, as one of my face the only lady said that we only become invisible when we allow ourselves to not see ourselves. So my purpose is to help women regain their confidence and, and find a roadmap through these these changes so that we can then go out and do something in the world you know, in a world that needs us.

Nicole Christina  13:30  
Talk a little bit about your photo project, face it own it.

Jo Blackwell  13:36  
Well, it started off as most things do with me as a whim.

And then just grew and grew.

It was some I'd seen a, I was talking to a friend and a mutual friend had put a photograph on on Facebook, I think it was and she had put so many filters on this photograph that she looked about, I don't know, about 20 a skin looked about two 25 but she looked strange, she looked like an alien. And we you know, without, you know, pitching behind her back, you know, we'd be both considered you see that photograph? And all the all the pictures, all the comments were Oh, you look lovely. You look so young, you haven't changed a bit. And I thought to myself, you know what, there is nothing wrong with looking 58 or 65 or 72 Why is beauty only defined by youth? And so I decided that I'd start I put the word I'm going to be taking photographs of women 40 plus without their makeup and I want to find out you know, what, how you feel about getting older. And then the press got hold of it. And the local bbc news crew came to my studio and filmed me taking some of these pictures and so on and I said on screen. I'm also asking women to send me their selfies because I can't take everybody's photograph. And I was absolutely inundated with no makeup selfies. These women were telling me how they feel about their appearance, how they feel about getting older. And it ended up I took 52 portraits in six months. And, and all these selfies came in, I think it's 125 in total that I've used. I've converted them all black and white, because it's an artistic project and black and white images. You see the person rather than what they're wearing, if it's in black and white, as one famous photographer said, No, I wish I hadn't said that. I can't remember his name.

Nicole Christina  15:32  
Somebody very famous, somebody very famous said that.

Jo Blackwell  15:36  
But some, you know, so it's about seeing older faces and normalizing seeing us as we are. And it's been really interesting what, what there have been some common themes, but they've, you know, a lot of the women that have come to me actually have have come through, come through it and are feeling fabulous and that confidence has allowed them to come to me but There have been a handful of women who have come and I've got so much admiration for them. Because they've said, I've lost myself, you know, I don't know who I am anymore. And I need to find me again. And I think it's so powerful to say that out loud and to allow other women to hear you saying that, because there's somebody out there that will hear that and realize I'm not alone. I don't know. You know, I'm sure you know, the figures of suicide figures for women, the greatest age for suicide. It was a study in in Australia in Melbourne, I believe it was a couple of years ago. A fifth is 5254. And it's something that isn't talked about but you know, nobody talks about mom feeling suicidal. So there's if I can just reach people reach women who are hiding themselves away because I think they're alone. And just put out that hand and say, You know what, I've been where you are, you're going to be okay, just take my hand and walk this way.

That's, that's

worthwhile.

Nicole Christina  17:03  
Hmm. And this is really heavy stuff that you're involved in and you're seeing people in a very vulnerable state. Yeah. Are there times when you have to step away and just, you know, disengage with some of these really heavy and meaningful issues in terms of ages and self identity.

Jo Blackwell  17:29  
I think the more philosophical things I'm interested me, so I'm quite happy. But if I, I do have women who email me privately, and I'm very careful, because obviously I'm not a trained therapist, or, you know, I don't try to be a therapist, I'm a friend. And that's, that's it. You know, I only go as far as to say that I could be a mentor. You know, I'm not a trained coach, or a therapist. So what I do signpost to people, so I've had to educate myself on what facility where I can sign people to signpost, people to And with the midlife movement, I have a whole cohort of coaches in I have a membership and in the membership for short courses by qualified coaches. So I have, I also have them as my advisors. So if I had somebody that I didn't know, you know that I was worried that I shouldn't really be the person they're talking to, I have people I can go to and say, right, where do I send this lady? You know, what resources do I send for her to look out? So, I mean, you're absolutely right. It's something that concerns me greatly, you know, that I wouldn't want to be in a position where somebody is relying on me. You know, I'm not qualified for that.

Nicole Christina  18:43  
Yeah, it's that's, that gets a very heavy,

Jo Blackwell  18:48  
very similar, huge responsibility.

Nicole Christina  18:50  
Hi, everyone. It's no secret that everyone's feeling pretty restless and unsettled right now. Our lives are upside down and The future is feeling pretty uncertain. But if you're anything like me, organizing my stuff can help me feel a little calmer. It's something I can do to help me feel a little more in control and in charge of my own life. If you think decluttering could help you feel better, and you could use a little assistance with that, check out the online course I've developed with professional organizer and designer Carrie Lutheran, it's called too much stuff. And too much stuff is different from other courses or articles or guidance you may have used, we give you clear steps to deal with the clutter and the tools to help you face the overwhelming feelings and the emotions that come up when we're going through our clutter and a lot of those emotions are just feeling anxious or guilty or just basically flooded with emotion. Lots of different, confusing feelings. The course is really practical, it's realistic. The lessons are short and punchy. And they're really manageable. We're not trying to set you up for some long exploratory, you know, super in depth, burdensome experience, we want something really helpful for you right now. We all need help with our anxiety. So being surrounded by more calm and less chaos can really help. So now's a good time to clear out the clutter so we can focus on what's really important in our lives. We'll find out more successful aging.com you'll see more about this under the web Courses tab. If you have any questions, just shoot me an email at zestful aging@gmail.com. Thanks so much. I'm wondering how you're having husband has been through these massive changes and that you've experienced I mean, you've changed your livelihood, you've changed your whole life focus, you've gone, you know, your role model now, what does that been like for your family relationships?

Jo Blackwell  21:23  
Um,

regarding my husband, my children are all grown. But regarding my husband he has, he's actually far more supportive in my growth than he was when I was in a dark place. So the the other day, for example, I did say to him, I was looking at my accounts, and my feeling rather dismal. And I said, Oh, I should have just stayed in a job and then I'd be contributing more. And he actually said to me, he said, but you'd have been so miserable. He said, Look how much joy you bought yourself. And I thought that was lovely. And I really appreciated him saying that because I would like Like to be contributing more so he didn't have to work so hard, you know. But, you know, I try to concentrate on my mission and you know, hopefully that will support me financially as well eventually.

Nicole Christina  22:13  
You have a lot of things going on you have the midlife movement, you have your own podcast, talk about your online course that's that's opening soon.

Jo Blackwell  22:27  
That the online course is called the midlife roadmap. When I started the, the midlife movement, I started it as a membership. And as with most things that you that you start, these things evolve, and I realized that there was something missing and that was a transformational journey. So sort of leading from A to B, and then go into the membership. So I started to study and looking to different coaching methods and so on, to try and help women go through the process that I went through. Because I took myself through a process of self reflection, and action taking vation basically to decide which direction I was going to go in. I'd gone back to university in my 40s. And I did a master's degree in International Relations, funnily enough, which I'm not exactly using now, but some, but after that, I wanted to do my PhD. And I wasn't able to get the funding. So I had I had various options, I could have done that and sort of just just remained remained penniless. Or I could have set up in business or I could have stayed I was in a government job at the time, which I absolutely hated. So I worked out what my needs were. And I worked out how those needs were fulfilled by each thing. And that was one of the ways I decided I made those decisions. Because what I find is that a lot of women that I speak to a very confused, they know what they don't want, but they don't know what they do want. So the course is going to be a six week course of working through these various areas with the aim to get to the end, and have a little bit of clarity about some next steps. So I'm not suggesting that a six week course and sort of, you know, coming on to sort of a group call and things like that is going to solve all your, all your amps and issues. But if you've got to the point where you're thinking, I want something, I want to work out what comes next. You know, what's, what's next? Who am I? Where am I going, where have I been? Am I happy? You know, and if I'm not what am I going to do about it? I would like to think that at the end of that six weeks, you can go away and say, right, my next steps are this, this and this, and at least feel that you know yourself a little bit better, and have eliminated some of the things that you don't want to do. So that you can concentrate on what you do.

Nicole Christina  25:00  
That sounds really important. Sounds like you're asking people to clarify their own values. Yes, I see.

Jo Blackwell  25:09  
Yes, I think I did. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I think that some it's that self. I I felt as if I was wading through treacle. I knew I didn't want to be where I was, but I had no clue where I wanted to go. And I think that's important. I mean, if you can't go somewhere if you can't make a map to somewhere Can you if you don't know what where you want to be?

Nicole Christina  25:31  
Exactly. experiences that the same with people who listen to the podcast and also are my clients who say, I've never had the luxury of asking myself what I want because it was always about what are the kids need what you know, what is my partner need? We're really focused on this supposedly the such a happy time we have these children and but it's really really been shown that it's a very difficult time, that there's a lot of strain. We're working, we're trying to put a meal on the table. And there's not the luxury of time to say what really makes my heart sing what really, you know, where do I belong? And what do I want to do with this life that I've been given?

Jo Blackwell  26:22  
It's, it's it comes down to, you know, once it is Maslow's hierarchy of needs, isn't it? You know, you deal with what you have to deal with. You have to get to a certain point where there aren't so many demands on you before you can really open up to yourself, it seems, perhaps it shouldn't be that way. But that does think about the way that our society is organized for it to be. And, you know, I'm not saying that everybody is going to go off and try and change the world. It might be that you know, you're happy being Grandma, you know, that you're, you know, that you like to knit and you know, there's nothing wrong With that, it's about choice. So it's about sort of knowing what your choices are, and then going towards those choices.

Nicole Christina  27:11  
Really kind of calling out what are the things I'm doing that don't bring me satisfaction or joy or a sense of purpose? live in limited time here so we better prioritize what you know what brings me energy and satisfaction.

Jo Blackwell  27:31  
Yeah, exactly.

Nicole Christina  27:33  
So, what what are some examples about what people have learned that have been surprising as they've You know, I'm sure you've had people look at the course and and people test the course. What are some stories for people have taken and said, Wow, I didn't know I like to, you know, fill in the blank or any any interesting awarenesses

Jo Blackwell  27:59  
you're gonna have I have to edit this bit, Nicole, because some I'm just testing it now. So I haven't got that information at the moment. I'm afraid.

Nicole Christina  28:07  
That's fine. Yeah. Yeah, I know, that'll be really lovely to see how people discover, you know themselves.

Jo Blackwell  28:15  
Yes, I'm really looking forward to that. It's some, yeah, it's a privilege isn't it to help people to, to discover themselves again, and I'm really looking forward to that and putting myself under an awful lot of pressure, if I if I'm honest, to try to be the best that I can be so that I can be that supportive person. You know, my biggest source of worry, am I am i doing this the right way, you know, is this the best way to to help these, this group of people? So it's some it's a huge learning curve for me and continues to be self development again. So I get a lot out of it as well. You know, it's, I've had to learn how to get up on a stage and be beeker and not you know, not have a have a heart attack beforehand you know, and I've had to learn how to how to listen and not just talk, you know, use my two ears instead of my one mouth. You know, that was quite a big one for me.

Unknown Speaker  29:19  
For all of us

Jo Blackwell  29:21  
yeah. So

I've been doing I'm gonna be doing some offline things as well. I'm gonna have like a launch event and things like this and because I don't want to lose that contact with people. I don't just want to be behind my laptop. Making memes for facebook and instagram.

excute time suck.

Nicole Christina  29:44  
Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Tell tell us a little bit about women worldwide eyes.

Unknown Speaker  29:53  
Oh, well.

Jo Blackwell  29:55  
women worldwide is is swirling around in the back of my brain at the moment. I've had to train me myself not to go everything full pelt, you know, I have to go. No, not yet. Joe, you haven't been asked what,

hold on

what I would like to do that the one I've been doing face to toe now, as I say 52 women in six months. So that's an average of two a week I've been talking to an awful lot of women. And it's been interesting way to talk to some women from different cultures and so on and to listen to what they have to say. And it occurred to me, you know, this Western way of being where we venerate youth and we're supposed to be put out to pasture you know, once we're past our childbearing and pole dancing days, less were called JLo. Um, you know, I I'm interested to know what how their culture treats them and how they see themselves. But this is one of those things I have to rein myself in because I can't afford to go traveling the world and taking photographs, interviewing Women world yet yeah, so I'm hoping that the face it own it book is something that I can use to open a few doors I used to have a publishing deal years ago. I know it's possible so I just need to sort of find the right backing for that. But I've been offered to be taken to meet the hill tribes of Roger Stan. I've got contacts in Scandinavia, I've got a lot of friends in the US, New Zealand, Australia, and, and so many different cultures. I, I just, you know, it's so interesting to me. And I know to a lot of other people and I think we can learn from each other from that.

Nicole Christina  31:40  
I can hear the excitement in your voice. Like there and then we can do this and

then after that,

so many, you know, I could just see the creativity and then you know that then there's logistics, you know? Yeah yeah. Write a few assistance. I really

Jo Blackwell  32:02  
do. I really do. I'm on my own at the moment. And it's all a bit much I've been all a bit much somebody, some project manage the Book Printing for me the design and the and the printing of the book and 100 books arrived yesterday, and then we've got to go back again. Ah, because they there's a problem with the binding. Oh, now I've got 60 women coming to the private view exhibition party on Friday, who have pre ordered their books and are expecting to pick them up. So I have to say, oh, my goodness, what am I gonna do? So I've now got to pay, you know, about $300 now in your, in your currency to post all of those out. So and I just sold enough to cover the costs of the printing and the design. And I was really, you know, congratulating myself we'll

look at a break even on this one, you know, and yeah

Nicole Christina  33:00  
You need to send one to Alicia Keys though because she started this a while back where she won't she doesn't wear makeup anymore. And she's such a role model. You know, she's a Grammy Award winner and she's just in her business. That's like heresy. You know? Nobody does that. So

Jo Blackwell  33:23  
it's like the thing in cameras and to where they have that thing about you can't walk on red carpet unless you're wearing high heels.

Ah, I mean, what the heck? I can't wear high heels. I have to do what I do. I have to be wheeled along.

I'll bring a skateboard.

Nicole Christina  33:42  
Here Nordic poles that is that that says a lot doesn't it?

Jo Blackwell  33:49  
Doesn't say it. I mean, you know what this is 2020 for goodness sake, why can't women be treated like people, you know, and and whether you're aware makeup or whether you've you've you've had Botox or whether you've got heels or not have got heels for goodness sake is far more important things to be thinking about

worrying about these things. Shame on them.

Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Christina  34:14  
All right. Are there any pieces of advice Joe, you'd like to share with our listeners who are all over the world and who may be in a dark place saying, you know what, what is this? dread? What is this anxiety? I'm stuck in a dark place and I know there's something on the other side, but I just don't know how to get myself there. Do you have any words of advice for them?

Jo Blackwell  34:43  
I'd like to say it. The first thing I'd like to say is, believe me You're not alone. And that in its itself it feels when you're in a dark place. It feels as if you are the only person that's in that dark place. You're not going mad. It is a physical To molt, of, of hormonal activity going on inside you just as it was, if you've had teenage daughters or remember being a teenager yourself, it's just doing that in reverse. I would recommend that you go and ask to be checked over ask your your general practitioner, could it be the menopause? Is it you know, is always all this connected and, and don't do your research but don't be afraid of HRT. A lot of the studies that have that came out that were linking it to breast cancer and so on had been proved not to have been accurate. So with the advice of your medical practitioner don't automatically because I never took HRT, I was absolutely terrified to do something like that. There are lots of things you can do for yourself in terms of keep moving, especially if you have joint stiffness and so on yoga, eat an anti inflammatory diet. As far as you can get yourself outside into the sunshine, take vitamin D, possibly clay with a lot of us are deficient in vitamin DS, particularly in the Northern Hemisphere. That certainly makes me feel a lot better. And, yeah, just know that you're going to come through it. It's not the end of the world, you're going to come through the other side. And when you come through the other side, it's like coming through a door. It's like,

Nicole Christina  36:24  
Oh, you know, angels are saying,

Jo Blackwell  36:28  
Yeah, no, no, no, no, no angels don't mean that side.

Unknown Speaker  36:34  
Right, right, right, please. Let's clear that one up. There.

Jo Blackwell  36:40  
Because some, I mean, for my For my part, I'm 60 next year, I'm nowhere near that that wheelchair that my consultant told me I would be here, but I can't bend my knees very well. But you know, I'm still concentrate on what I can do not what I can't do. And I don't have as much much energy but I have a different kind of energy. I've had a huge surge in creative energy because I don't have to be looking after for children all the time. And I can give my grandchildren back you know so yeah so that that that sums it up really is no years old get help and know there's help there's hope and talk to your girlfriend's talk to other find women who are going through the same things. You know, come and join us as a free Facebook group on you know, if you do Facebook, you have a minute talking about all these things.

Nicole Christina  37:33  
What is the Facebook

Jo Blackwell  37:34  
group called? The midlife movement,

Nicole Christina  37:37  
midlife

Jo Blackwell  37:38  
movement there's a page and then you can get to the group from that I asked you a few questions about what you'd like to talk about and what you're excited about and what you're worried about.

Nicole Christina  37:46  
midlife, midlife move the midlife move I'm sorry mid life movement group on Facebook.

Jo Blackwell  37:52  
Yes. And if you if you go on to my website checked and can I say that

Nicole Christina  37:56  
I would like you to say

Jo Blackwell  38:00  
www www dot midlife movement.com you can then you can sign up for the waitlist to find out about the midlife roadmap when it's released or you can the the book that I told you about the very first one where I went around taking photographs of people enjoying their their lives that is there as a free pdf download now so you can get your email address in there and you can get that book and and you know if you'd like to join us We would love to see you in the membership there's lots of courses and things in there on dealing with anxiety and and fun stuff as well like wardrobe, detox and things like that, you know, how to do rediscover your creativity and you know, so

it's all good, fun,

Nicole Christina  38:46  
beautiful and I and you have such a great spirit about it of adventure and, you know, and your sense of humor and I've been there and really understanding this and wanting to help. It's really lovely.

Jo Blackwell  39:01  
I think it brings it as my husband said, it brings me so much joy.

So it's it's selfish as well, you know, I,

I am so happy now. It's just lovely to I just want it to grow and grow, you know and to reach more women and I want what I want ultimately is for there to be no need no need for this movement and this business that I've set up. I want my daughters to reach menopause and it not be a big thing. You know, by the time my granddaughters get there, you know, it can be something that was in the past. Yeah, right. We don't have to whisper about it anymore. I took my my mum for lunch the other day and she was telling me about medical issues that she had and she said

she was whispering to me.

I said, Mom, never be embarrassed. You wouldn't be embarrassed if you'd got, you know, a sore ankle or you know if we've got to get away from this. We've got to talk about things and get things out there.

Nicole Christina  40:02  
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Joe Blackwell, you are a role model for all of us. I so appreciate you taking time from your very busy schedule because you're doing so many good things. And I wish you luck with the course. And I'm I'm really excited to see you your journey and your continued success.

Jo Blackwell  40:28  
Thank you. That's so kind of you.

Nicole Christina  40:31  
Thank you so much for joining us on zestful aging. If you like the podcast, please share it with some of your friends. I love to hear from my listeners, send me an email at Nicole christina.com. In this phase of our lives, we're more aware that our time is precious and we certainly don't want to waste it, taking care of stuff that we no longer need leftover from a life that we are no longer Living. We know we would feel better with less clutter and more open space, but we don't know how to get there. If this sounds familiar, I'd love you to check out the online course I've developed with professional organizer and designer Carrie Lutheran. This course is different than others who may have tried because we give you clear steps to deal with the clutter and tools to help you face the overwhelm and feelings that come up when you're going through your clutter. It's practical and realistic, and the lessons are short and punchy and very manageable, but it has the power to change your life. We all deserve to live in a peaceful home without the chaos of too much stuff. Find out more at Nicole christina.com and stay tuned next next week for another interview with a fascinating and inspiring guest

Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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March 28, 2020 -- Landmark Anti-Ageism and Gender Equity Lawsuit at New York News Channel NY1

Five anchorwomen at NY1, one of the country’s most prominent local news channels, are suing their employer over age and gender discrimination, alleging a systematic effort by managers to force them off the air in favor of younger, less experienced hosts. Roma Torre has won dozens of journalism awards including 2 Emmys in her 35 year career covering every major news event in NYC. She currently hosts NY1’s Live noon hour and she is also an award winning theatre critic. Kristen Bush Shaughnessy has been an Anchor at NY1 since 1995 and winner of numerous awards. Kristen was the primary weekday morning fill-in anchor with approximately 45 slots per year. After the merger with Charter, her fill-in opportunities vanished. Find out more and support this landmark case: #unseenonTV, @unseenwomenonTV.

Transcription

Roma Torre  0:00  
Women of a certain age have a lot to contribute. And there's no reason why we have to 
have a shelf life while our male colleagues can get gray and wrinkled and they can stay 
on the air, you know well past their prime.

Nicole Christina  0:29  
Welcome to zestful aging where I interview thoughtful, inspiring and influential guests 
who are changing the way we think about what is possible in our lives, especially as we 
age. I'm your host, Nicole, Christina, psychotherapist and fellow zestful ager and I love 
to hear from my listeners, so leave me a comment on zestful aging.com. Our music is 
courtesy of Judy banker who was also a guest on zestful aging It's off of her new CD 
buffalo motel and you can find out more about her on Judy banker calm. Well as usual I've 
got my loyal jack Russell Sparky right by my side. So let's begin. We have a very 
important episode for you today and it fits in perfectly with Women's History Month. Five 
anchor women at New York one one of the country's most prominent local news channels are 
suing their employer over age and gender discrimination, alleging a systemic effort by 
managers to force them off of the air in favor of younger, less experienced hosts. And 
we'll be speaking with two of these women today. Roma Tory has won dozens of journalism 
awards including two Emmys in her 35 year career covering every major news event in New 
York. City. She currently hosts New York's ones live noon hour. She's also an award 
winning theater critic. And we also will be speaking with Kristen Shaughnessy who's been 
an anchor at New York one since 1995. She's the winner of new numerous awards. And she is 
one of the Irish American power women. And she was live at the scene from the World Trade 
Towers when they came down and 911 thank you so much for joining me ladies. Thank you, 
Nicole. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you and I know that you have been very busy covering the 
virus I I already know from Kristen's Facebook profile that she's up at 2am you guys my I 
don't know how you do it. I really don't. So you've got a lot going on and

Kristen Bush  2:57  
without coffee with fat. That is Yeah, I

Nicole Christina  3:00  
don't I don't understand that one. But let me, let me just ask you, you know, these are 
two really big things going on, you know, on the air. And also this is a landmark 
lawsuit. How are you navigating? Same time, Rama?

Roma Torre  3:21  
Well, you know, you have to compartmentalize your life when you have all of these big 
events happening at the exact same time, because we are hearing from our lawyers, fairly 
often. I'm also in contract negotiations. And so that's taking up a lot of my time. But 
when I walk into the newsroom, I don't think about those things. Honestly, I put all of 
that aside because what we do on New York one is just

Nicole Christina  3:51  
so

Roma Torre  3:53  
so intense moment to moment, and now you see news anchors, oftentimes, we just look like 
you know, we're Pretty Talking Heads, but there's a lot more to it. We're researching our 
stories and making phone calls and then certainly writing and editing, copy editing, etc. 
So, second I walk into that newsroom I am focused exclusively on the news at hand. And as 
you know, the corona virus is just dominated our every waking moment. So even when I go 
home, I just actually, just this moment, I had to tear myself away from listening to the 
President on a live news conference talking about the corona virus just so I could be up 
to speed when I walk in the door on Monday morning. So it's just a it's never ending. You 
know, I've always said to the young people, this is not a glamorous job by any stretch of 
the imagination. This is a calling. I mean, this is something that we do very much like a 
priest or a doctor would regard their work. We're here to serve the public and it's it is 
a 24 seven operation patient,

Nicole Christina  5:00  
you said something that I think really is a nice segue. You said this is not a glamorous 
job. But it does sound like some people believe that's what it should be about.

Roma Torre  5:14  
Unfortunately, Yes, they do. But I would say 90% maybe Kristen, you might chime in on 
this, but 90 to 95% of the working women and and men in our business don't really make a 
big salary at all. I mean, there there's an emphasis on appearance, obviously. So we have 
to look glamorous, at least that's what some of our bosses want to watch. Want us to look 
like but honestly, we're in my mind in my head. It's not about looking good. It's about 
doing good work. But but you know what I have said this in the past, it used to be that 
beauty queens would aspire to be news, women and More and more and more, I'm seeing news 
women aspiring to be beauty queens and that that, to me, that's unfortunate. And it 
doesn't. It doesn't really make sense in our current climate.

Kristen Bush  6:11  
Yeah, Jo, journalism has to like, be in your core, you have to just want to consume news 
constantly. And I think we're all just hungry for information and to be relators of that 
information. Max matter.

Unknown Speaker  6:22  
Yep, they do. I see.

Nicole Christina  6:25  
So when the two of you and this may have happened at different times, start getting an 
inkling that things were changing and that perhaps you were not getting the respect or 
the air time or you know, I don't know exactly how it goes in your industry but you were 
starting to say wait a minute, something's changed. Something's different here and it's 
not feeling good.

Kristen Bush  6:55  
Bid with me right. Roma when we saw Yeah, we there were a bunch of things. changes that 
were made. And I was excluded from all of them. And I had been the main fill in morning 
and dayside anchor for 22 years at that point, and there was no discussion and when I 
asked they told me I was not owed an explanation.

Nicole Christina  7:14  
Uh huh.

Roma Torre  7:15  
Yeah, there was a there was a point.

About three years ago, I guess it was when or two Yeah, I guess it was three years ago, 
when it was right around, actually almost exactly three years from this month that our 
new parent company fired a bunch of mostly older on camera people. And that was sort of a 
wake up call to me. I fortunately was not in the that group but it it started to dawn on 
me. And then that year, I think it was that New York one was celebrating its 25th 
anniversary, and I was actually the very first person hired to be on camera at New York 
one in April of 1992. And nobody wanted to do anything with me. Nobody wanted to 
celebrate my 25 years and I really thought what a wonderfully promotable opportunity it 
is for the company to say hey, Roma's with us 25 years, I mean, just, you know, the fun 
that would have they could have tapped into and the more around

Nicole Christina  8:35  
how lovely that would be to feel appreciated and have other people say, they, they care 
and recognize us. I

Unknown Speaker  8:42  
mean, that goes without saying, but I mean, just think about it. Just the visuals of this 
showing me with those awful 19 1990s

Nicole Christina  8:49  
those big shouldered suits, oh goodness,

Roma Torre  8:54  
my hair and all that and you know, it's fun just to laugh at those old images. If they 
didn't have a Anything at all. And that the contrast and this is this is what really got 
us going was that one of our male anchors who was celebrating his 20 years at New York 
one. They just pulled out all the stops for him and had a massive celebration and they 
spent a lot of money, apparently, and they had commercials and promotions and all of 
that. So at that point, I realized, okay, I'm on my way out, it was pretty clear.

Nicole Christina  9:29  
Is this management on this new management? Are they mostly male or they also have women?

Kristen Bush  9:37  
It is mostly male at the top.

Nicole Christina  9:39  
Yeah, yeah. And that's typical for your industry.

Roma Torre  9:43  
Unfortunately. Yes, yes.

Nicole Christina  9:45  
So so I'm just curious Rome as a psychotherapist, you know, I'm trying to think about how 
you must have felt, you know, being basically passed over and then all this celebration 
going on. mean, how do you deal with the feelings that that must have engendered?

Roma Torre  10:05  
Well, obviously, it hurt a lot. And I didn't understand why. You know, I mean, just from 
a simple you know, you mentioned morale. Okay. That's, that's within our newsroom 
culture. And that certainly made no sense to me. But from a business standpoint, and 
we're talking about, you know, the profit making venture this company is that they didn't 
see the potential in, in celebrating, not not just me, but the host. They didn't even 
mark the 25 years of New York one. So I just thought, wow, I mean, they could they could 
have gotten so much interest in attention by putting me out there. So it made no sense. 
And it was

Kristen Bush  10:49  
really a missed opportunity because many of our viewers had been with us since the very 
beginning. So they would have been celebrating right along with us.

Nicole Christina  10:56  
Right? See and you really have it sounds like I mean, I'm upstate, so I I'm not privy to 
your to your channel, but it sounds like it's a very special channel and that from what I 
understand is kind of near and dear to New Yorkers hearts. Is that is that right? Oh, 
absolutely.

Roma Torre  11:16  
You know it is we, when we started at New York one our our visionary founder was a 
wonderful gentleman named Richard Elio, who's still with us, thank God. I mean, he's not 
with the company's retired long ago, but he's, you know, very much alive and kicking. And 
it was his dream to establish a hometown news channel for New Yorkers. And it was 
essentially, you know, built on this model of no frills. And we were we all had to be New 
Yorkers. They couldn't expect us to be all born and bred but we all had to be living in 
New York City and be very attuned to the culture of the city. And he liked the idea that 
some of us had European

Kristen Bush  12:02  
Right, he wanted us to look and sound like real New Yorkers, which was a wonderful 
concept. And so that's how we started. And it's like a gritty station. Right? You see? 
Real Yeah, real life. I'll give you this example. Nicole, when I first started, you know, 
it was hard to get your questions answered at a press conference, because we were still 
the upstart. And then, after a while became us the question because I'll answer your 
question, because we are we established ourselves as we're clever the city 24 hours a 
day, seven days a week, we are there for New Yorkers, right?

Roma Torre  12:36  
It did it caught on it caught on in a very, very big way. And we did have a lot of 
followers and we still do, obviously,

Nicole Christina  12:42  
so it doesn't have a generic feel of some of the other broadcasts. Generic No,

Roma Torre  12:49  
I mean, we are very homegrown New Yorkers. We still we told her Yeah, and yeah, I'm very 
proud and to be honest with you for the longest time Nobody wanted to leave New York one. 
No, no. And I'm the first to admit that the pay isn't the greatest, you know, relative to 
other New York City news channels. But it was a family atmosphere. And it was a, you 
know, a team effort. We all worked so well together. And so the turnover was very, very 
light in the in there, and we used to laugh, you'd have to commit a crime in order to 
leave New York one.

Nicole Christina  13:27  
Say yes, very cohesive and felt unusual. Now, was it a clear change when the company was 
bought out? Is that where sort of this, this happened or had it been developing even 
earlier?

Kristen Bush  13:45  
It was when the new company came in. It was just a completely different mandate. And they 
had a different approach. They were not from the city. They're from Connecticut. They 
were not familiar with Newark one. They were not familiar with us. They didn't want to 
get to know us. You know, we really kind of have written off before they even decided to 
establish a relationship with any of us.

Roma Torre  14:06  
Yeah, it seemed pretty clear that they, they were going with this model of having 
younger, prettier faces on the air. And so I think just simply by virtue of the fact that 
we were older, they thought maybe we wouldn't sell as well or if we weren't as attractive 
enough for television news, you know, we called it the box ification of the of the news 
broadcast. Because you see that you know, the standard look on Fox and I mean, it's, it's 
been replicated elsewhere, is you know, very, very, you know, beautiful women, you know, 
beautifully thin with that anchor dress that they all wear and very show the leg on a 
blonde hair, right and you know, a lot of very, pretty beauty queen type locks. No,

Kristen Bush  14:58  
Nicole, we should that we should save You know, our complaints are with management and 
not with our colleagues because we have some very talented younger colleagues. The thing 
is, they are also going to get older, and they're gonna have to deal with this. This 
doesn't change just because they're the ones who are younger now. So we are really 
fighting for them as well. And hopefully they're starting to see that as we continue to 
go in there every day and work hard and do our job.

Nicole Christina  15:22  
Does it set up an awkwardness between you and the younger women? It depends on who?

Kristen Bush  15:30  
Yes, some it doesn't some it doesn't. Some have gotten it right from the very beginning. 
Others have still don't understand it and are angry. And that's, you know, Phil, they'll 
understand it at some point, I'm sure. But you know, for the most part. I think they've 
come around when she say well, you said from a select few,

Roma Torre  15:49  
a lot of luck. We have you know, as I mentioned, it was it was a family environment at 
New York one I mean, I still regarded as a family and when the younger When the younger 
producers and news assistants come in, I'm happy to mentor them if, you know, they ask, I 
mean, I'm not shoving myself down their throats. But, you know, just by virtue of the 
years of experience that I've had, and, you know, you writing my writing muscle is, is 
pretty in tune right now. So I can help them get better in their work, but some of them 
relish it and others, you know what, no, no part of us and it's unfortunate because I 
just really feel we could accomplish so much more if we're all willing to work together.

Kristen Bush  16:35  
We have more than 100 years of experience in New York, one's newsroom alone, aside from 
the other jobs that we've held in the past,

Nicole Christina  16:42  
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any questions, just shoot me an email at cessful aging@gmail.com. Thanks so much. So how 
did this go? You said Rome, it was very clear that you Your anniversary there was passed 
up and your summon in your cohort, a man was celebrated. They put a lot of resources into 
who first said, you know, this is not going anywhere and I need to take it up another 
level.

Roma Torre  19:21  
Well, that's funny, because individually, I think, well, there there are five of us co 
plaintiffs in this lawsuit. But individually, each one of us I think, at some point came 
to the realization that we didn't have much of a future in this new dynamic in this 
newsroom. And so I think it was it's, well, you know, what it is what tipped me off with 
was Kristen, most particularly, I really thought, you know, I was approaching 60 at that 
point, and I thought, wow, you know, I have to come to terms with the fact that older 
women are not on the air and I just thought that they were going to phase me out and I 
obviously was fighting it. But it, it didn't seem that strange to me that this would be 
happening to someone like me. Kristin is a lot younger than me. And they were doing that 
to her. And when I, when I saw that it really got my dander up because Kristen is such an 
amazing journalist. And she does it all. And she's just she's so competent on the air. 
And not only that, she looks great, too. So it made no sense to me that they were trying 
to push Kristin out, but it was so clear that they were she she was the main sub anchor 
in the mornings. She She I think she had something like, you know, 50 days subbing in the 
mornings, which are obviously the most watched times. So that's the the news slot that 
gets the highest ratings. So all of a sudden, with the new management, she went from 50 
something to zero. They weren't putting her on the air at all in the mall. Wow. Yeah, 
that just made No, sorry. So when I saw that, that really that just that burned my blood, 
and I said, we got to do something. And then one by one, we all kind of got together and 
realized, you know, we had a case,

Nicole Christina  21:12  
huh? What was that like to get together and say, we've got to take this up in the legal 
system.

Kristen Bush  21:20  
It was it was a difficult decision. I think for all of us. It was very scary. We, we all 
went back and forth, back and forth. It's a big decision, you realize, you know, these 
are careers that we love. And you realize that you could be killing your career. But this 
is a bigger issue. And it's not just the five of us. This is happening to men and women 
all over the country and all over the world. So at some point, somebody's got to stand 
up, and we have a platform. And we said, it's time to use that platform. It was I mean, 
it was a lot of sleepless nights, and a lot of back and forth. But ultimately, you have 
to stand up for the truth. And so that's what we're doing.

Roma Torre  21:57  
Yeah, right. I mean, you know what, Nicole, right to The last minute some of us were 
trying to back out of it saying, Ah, we're this, this is going to be foolish. And, you 
know, we were counseled by family members, friends, some of us had, you know, family 
members in the legal profession. And we were getting all sorts of different advice. And 
but mostly what we were hearing was, this is the end of your careers,

Nicole Christina  22:24  
you're going My goodness, you are

Roma Torre  22:26  
going to destroy any future that you have in this business because AI is right. Nobody 
wants to work with whiners, nobody wants to work with somebody who's, you know, blow your 
whistle

Nicole Christina  22:34  
blowers to exactly exactly how and so then you eventually got the the name the New York 
City five

Kristen Bush  22:46  
or the New York one, five. Yeah. I think that was coined by somebody on Facebook, 
actually one of our viewers, and it has kind of has kind of stuck. And then the New York 
City Council has introduced legislation based on our case, anti age discrimination 
legislation which we're happy that they did that

Nicole Christina  23:04  
said that we need it. Did you report on that?

Kristen Bush  23:07  
Vivian and Amanda and Marisol testified at the City Council hearing, we did not report on 
it.

Nicole Christina  23:19  
So you, you know, you've really you've dedicated your life to this really tough 
profession. And now you're gonna do something else. That's pretty tough. Yes is well, the 
losses, the losses? I mean, do you see here? Do you identify yourself as women who are 
particularly strong and rebellious or not? Not necessarily. Well, you know what, let me 
just add to this.

Roma Torre  23:49  
You're asking how it felt and what it was like, you know, trying to make this decision. 
Yeah. Kristen, and I shared something that we had in common that we didn't even realize 
but Leading up to the lawsuit that those last couple of years before, you know, we 
decided to, you know, pull the trigger and go ahead with it. We had a lot of very 
restless, restless, sleepless nights because we just didn't know what to do. We were so 
anxiety ridden about the treatment that we were receiving and how clear it was that they 
were probably going to try to not renew our contracts, etc. And so the day that we filed 
the lawsuit was one of the most anxiety ridden of all my entire life because I was afraid 
of how it was going to go down. But after that, I really honestly haven't had a sleepless 
night. Since it's been I just, my conscience is clear and I feel I i empowered myself I 
did everything I could to call attention to this injustice and this discriminatory 
treatment. meant that that we had felt so at that point I realized we did make the right 
decision you know, despite all of the back and forth and worry and the doubts and the 
worries Yeah,

Nicole Christina  25:10  
I finally made the right decision very aligned with your values ultimately, so you could 
feel some peace about it.

Roma Torre  25:17  
Yeah, I mean, it hasn't been easy, obviously. But I just feel I'm at peace with myself I 
am I feel like I did the right thing.

Kristen Bush  25:23  
It's easy when you have the truth on your side. It's just hard in the day to day because 
you are still working a full time and in a fairly intense job and this certainly doesn't 
make it you know, any easier so

Nicole Christina  25:35  
So you went into the studio and did you know when your employers were going to receive 
notice? Well, you were you were aware when this this was gonna

Kristen Bush  25:49  
break. Should I tell the story Roma Yeah. So we knew it was going to happen. They have 
kept Janine and Amanda basically away from the newsroom. They shoot and edit by 
themselves every day. So they're not there. Vivian is only there three days a week. So it 
was just Roman I who were going to be in the newsroom that day. And I wanted to get out 
of the newsroom because we knew it was going to become public. So I went on my story, 
Roma was in the morning meeting. And Romi can take it from there. But the New York Times 
alert went off on everyone's phones. And as I've been told the story many times by many 
of our colleagues, everybody looked down at their phones. Then they looked up at Roma. 
And she looked at them like, Yep, that's right.

Nicole Christina  26:34  
That sounds like a movie scene. Yes.

Kristen Bush  26:37  
Yeah. And then what did you do after that? Roma, you walk down the middle of the 
newsroom.

Roma Torre  26:41  
The meet everybody was like in shock. And then I got up and I walked, you know, the news. 
It's a very big open space there and I walked through the newsroom and I got a bunch of 
high fives I got people were cheering me on. There was a there are cliques of people 
standing together and they grabbed me and gave me a big hug. And in some cases, they 
wanted to hug me in front of our managers offices. And you know, these are the people 
we're suing. And I said, you know, no, no, we should keep our distance you don't you 
don't want to, you know, be with me at this point. And they were like, No, no, we want to 
show solidarity. So, that felt really, really good. And I

Nicole Christina  27:19  
can't, you can't you can't write that any any better.

Kristen Bush  27:23  
Yeah. And I was down at Manhattan criminal court. And again, I thought, once we filed, no 
one's going to talk to me in that newsroom except for Roma. So we were down there I was 
with one of our shooters who was just amazingly supportive. And she was like, good for 
you. Finally, someone's calling it out. We all see it. And then it was going through the 
courthouse, and I had police officers and court officers. I mean, this is just broke and 
people were coming up to me and it was really really nice. It was getting our phones were 
just blowing up. Oh my

Nicole Christina  27:54  
goodness. I can't imagine what that must have felt like given that you were you know, 
understandably so nervous about the backlash,

Kristen Bush  28:03  
we had no idea what it would be like. And then it was great. Then I went to Rikers Island 
to cover another story and the support there was wonderful. In fact, one of our old 
colleagues said, I have to stop my car and come and give you a hug, which was really 
nice. And then when I got back to the newsroom, I experienced a lot of what Rene 
experienced.

Roma Torre  28:21  
Yep. And you know, it was and from that point on, it was like a ripple effect. And then 
it hit newspapers all over the world. And I mean, not just in our country, but we heard 
from I heard from a friend in Macedonia and said, Oh my god, you're my champion. It was 
in China. It was in Japan, it was in Australia, it was in Ireland, it was in England and 
women from all over the planet were sending us notes, and not only cheering us on, but 
then telling us their tales of whoa and how they had felt similar mistreatment in their 
workplace. And, you know, I heard from the hopefully this I heard from women who had been 
in the Obama administration and couldn't get hired anywhere after they after they left 
Washington, because of their age? And so I mean, it was like, Wow. You know, and if 
somebody actually said, well, you started a movement. I mean, that that wasn't our aim, 
necessarily. But if it is that big enough to change the game for thousands, millions of 
women in the world, well, I feel Wow, that's just a wonderful benefit of something that 
we just felt had had to be done.

Nicole Christina  29:34  
And you have some pretty influential supporters. We do.

Kristen Bush  29:39  
We do. Maria Shriver was nice enough to let us write a column for her. We have heard from 
a number of politicians Rama who have given their support a lot of the borough presidents 
that has been nice. The mayor has given his support. Yeah.

Roma Torre  29:55  
Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to think of Katie Couric. supported us. Lin Manuel Miranda sent a 
lovely

tweet on our behalf.

Kristen Bush  30:07  
So Ah,

Roma Torre  30:09  
thank you, Lynn. Wow, guy.

Nicole Christina  30:12  
Yeah. So wonderful. We're really touched

Kristen Bush  30:14  
by that. And when Roma Roma is our theatre critic and very well known in the theater 
community, and when you go to the theater with her, you see this support, and it's just 
wonderful. Oh, my

Nicole Christina  30:24  
goodness, it's really changed your lives.

Roma Torre  30:27  
Yeah. I mean, and unintentionally, believe me, I mean, that, you know, that's another 
part of it, too, as journalists and I regard myself as a journalist of the old school, 
and I know I'm sure that probably ages me even further, but I go by the understanding 
that we're not the story, retell other stories, we're conduits, and so it's difficult for 
us to be at the center of the story. I mean, even talking to know about it, it's a little 
odd because I report on other people

Kristen Bush  30:58  
we're supposed to be interviewing You

Nicole Christina  31:02  
asked the question.

Kristen Bush  31:03  
Yeah. So it's a

Nicole Christina  31:04  
little it's awkward for us. It's Yeah, it's strange. That's right. I can, I can imagine 
that. So what would be the best outcome of this? What would what would make you feel 
really pleased and happy as this? This is adjudicated

Kristen Bush  31:20  
that. Men who decided we were too old are not allowed to dictate that our careers are 
over if we're doing a good job, if you're doing the work, if you're working hard, you 
shouldn't be allowed to continue in your careers. So we would like that. There are other 
things we'd like as well, like a change in management. We'll see what we get.

Roma Torre  31:38  
Yeah, I mean, we just we, as I said before, and we this was sort of our mantra change the 
game, we want people to realize that women of a certain age, have a lot to contribute, 
and there's no reason why we have to have a shelf life while our male colleagues can get 
gray and wrinkled and they can stay on the air you know, well past their prime. And, you 
know, I do I feel like I'm in my premiere. I think I'm as good as I'll ever be, by virtue 
of the fact that I, I feel very comfortable on the air and I feel comfortable having had 
experienced so much in the past. And I can use that to add perspective and context in my, 
in my news reporting, and, I mean, these are things that don't come that quickly nor nor 
easily. But if you've been in the business, as long as I have, you would think that those 
are attributes that you want to celebrate, not to discard.

Nicole Christina  32:37  
So, yeah, that makes so much sense. Yeah, right.

Kristen Bush  32:41  
institutional knowledge is is a very big thing. And it's a valuable tool, particularly in 
news because you have to have context as Roma said to past events and to past officials. 
So it all there's room at the table for everyone, but there is definitely room for 
institutionalized and not knowledge and experience.

Nicole Christina  33:01  
That's Yeah, it's interesting. I had a woman call me I'm a psychotherapist. And she said, 
I tried to see this other woman, but she was in her 20s. And she had no life experience. 
I just didn't think it would be a good fit. And I just thought that was an interesting 
comment, you know, wanted to talk to someone who, as you said, has a context and has had 
some lived experience really has value.

Roma Torre  33:27  
And, you know, go ahead, let me just add one thing. That's, that's why generally in a 
newsroom, there's a pecking order and there are rites of passage and you don't get to be 
an anchor until you've been reporting in the field for a certain amount of time so that 
you can, you know, gain the experience that you need in order to be able to to have that 
voice of authority when you do on the air and people hear you and you can gain their 
trust as someone who knows what they're talking about, but to put people on the air 
straight out of out of journal school or wherever they went to went to get their training 
without having gained all that experience that you would in the field is unfortunate and 
and mistakes will be made. And I think, you know, this this new concept of putting 
younger people on the air, you know, without the experience is going to get newsrooms 
into a lot of trouble and it may be contributing to this kind of distrust that there is 
in the in the community, or the media. Maybe they don't look at us in the mean, as I was 
saying this the other night, there are no Walter Cronkite's in the on the air anymore. 
You know, there's there's no voice of authority that everybody says, Well, if uncle 
Walter said it, it must be true. I face nobody on the air that that has, you know, 
carries that kind of weight and authority. And that's unfortunate.

Nicole Christina  34:55  
That's really interesting. You know what I was, I was thinking who's a very notable 
exception. Is JUDY WOODRUFF lover? Yeah, yeah. Can you tell me about how she has been 
able to stay on the air? Because she is obviously a woman of yours? And I don't know, the 
you know, she's she's very much of an exception.

Kristen Bush  35:17  
Yeah, I would say she and Andrea Mitchell, writer, Joe are two of the only older few 
others.

Roma Torre  35:24  
But you know, to be honest with you, there are quite a few. And I'm, you know, at the 
network level at the network level. Yes. Yeah. Local ad in the local news. Luckily, it's 
hard. Yes. But at the network level, I think, you know, they they come to the, to the 
reality or the understanding that you really, there is great value in older people, not 
just older men or older women, older people who know what's going on in the world. And so 
JUDY WOODRUFF is certainly, you know, although for every JUDY WOODRUFF there's 10 older 
women at the networks who were forced out and that part is unfortunate. But the lucky 
ones like Judy, I'm thinking of well Andrea Mitchell certainly that there are a bunch of 
that I can't even think it's terrible that they're not coming to mind right now but

Nicole Christina  36:12  
because you're sleep deprived.

Kristen Bush  36:14  
Sure. And we went to a high rose me induction. There were a lot of older women in TV 
there and they all understood exactly what our case was about. And they were glad we were 
fighting that somebody had called it out so for everyone to have these similar shared 
experiences. There's something to it

Nicole Christina  36:35  
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to hear you because when you were describing, you know, 
this is a calling this isn't you know, we don't get paid as much as you might think we 
do. This is hard, you know, we want to let you this is kind of in our blood and, and 
really wind it wanting to contribute, I think to the greater good and this is this is 
evolved. way past, I think But you had imagined, so really contributing to the greater 
good. And the time is now women are ready for this.

Roma Torre  37:08  
I you know, that's true. I mean, the culture with the me to movement and now the 
conviction of Harvey Weinstein is the tide has turned certainly. And I think people are 
just taking a second look and realizing that they, they've got to regard women in a 
different way.

Nicole Christina  37:25  
And so where are we now in the process to two parts to this? Where are we in the process? 
And what can our listeners do to support you?

Kristen Bush  37:35  
The best way to support us would be on social media, we're on all the platforms. It's 
unseen on TV or unseen women on TV, depending on the platform. And then the five of us 
are on most or all of the platforms. And then as for the case, we're just kind of waiting 
for legal proceedings to be addressed, and then we'll see what happens from there. Yeah,

Roma Torre  37:58  
then we just encourage women to stand up for themselves and, Look, I know it's very 
intimidating at work. And these stories that women have told us and they're pouring their 
hearts out about how badly they were treated in their newsrooms. And it's, it's just, 
it's unforgivable and then excusable, yet they've got to stand up, and one way or 
another. And, you know, to be honest, we've, the five of us have talked about starting 
some kind of foundation to help women in these situations, cope with their management and 
their poor treatment in the in the newsrooms or in any workplace has it's got to stop.

Kristen Bush  38:43  
It's it's very ingrained discrimination in our society. So we have to change the way of 
thinking because this has been going on for so long that people don't even realize that 
it's happening until you really look at it closely. And then as one of our co plaintiffs, 
Jr. Ramirez says once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Roma Torre  39:02  
Right? You know that that true that brought to mind. Somewhere I had read that ageism is 
the last acceptable ism. Because there is this sort of built in discrimination against 
older people, but particularly women in the workplace. And it's accepted. And I'm telling 
you, as I mentioned earlier, I was kind of accepted. In my case, I just thought, Well, 
you know, you're not getting any younger, you're getting older, and maybe it is time to 
leave. Why? Why is it time I had, I had to reassess and say why I'm really I'm good at 
what I do. I don't know why I would have to leave just because I'm a little older. So 
we've got to change the mindset. That's not going to be easy, obviously. But people have 
to have to see that women of a certain age have plenty to contribute. I mean, my God, 
look at look at Elizabeth Warren. 70 years old and she She nailed all of her debates. You 
know, she, she put billionaire. Oh, yeah. Michael Bloomberg in a corner. And I mean, the 
poor guy was devastated. And I think, you know, day one on that on that debate stage, he 
knocked him right out of the out of the race. Yeah. So look, look how vital she is and 
how, you know, tough and sharp. And this is this is what we all have to look forward to 
hopefully that, you know, we have that kind of future. And we want the world to recognize 
that.

Kristen Bush  40:32  
And I think it starts at the top you just need more diversity in age in gender and race 
at the top because you need to have more voices in the

Nicole Christina  40:39  
room. Absolutely. Yeah. I think you're you're really amplifying this issue and that it's, 
it's just in so many versions, and I hear it from so many different guests in their own, 
you know, lives or in their own ways. Not, not that they're or women, but that they're 
just, they feel like they, they're ready to step up. And they're not, they're not willing 
to be invisible once they hit menopause, at that's just not acceptable and that they're 
proving, proving this is just purely discrimination. And in fact, I was just interviewing 
people who are master athletes and the same kind of thinking is, you know, oh, when I get 
older, I can't do my athletic event. And these are women 60 7080 and they travel the 
world. You know, their whole lives are about practicing their events and meeting in the 
in their international competitive conferences. And it's, it's just fabulous to watch 
that.

Kristen Bush  41:52  
And I think as women get older, you just you find your voice more and more with every 
decade and that probably doesn't go over as well. Either with bosses who would like you 
to be a little bit more just okay, whatever you need whatever you want, right without 
questioning decisions.

Nicole Christina  42:06  
Right. Right. And so there's not necessarily a timeline here. You're You're, you're sort 
of in limbo waiting to hear the next Yeah. How's that? Just the waiting? How's that been 
for you?

Roma Torre  42:18  
Well, you know, the thing is, we all love our jobs. And we are news women through and 
through, and we enjoy coming in and doing that thing that, you know, we've been trained 
to do that we love so much. So, you know, the, the waiting, it's, it's a little 
frustrating that things are moving so slowly, but on the other hand, we get to show up 
for work every day. You know, unlike other lawsuits related to their, you know, job 
experience. We have not been fired and we are still showing up for work every day. So 
that kind of compensates for the fact that we're in this predicament in this precarious 
place. session here where we really don't know what our future holds for us. But we go 
day to day.

Nicole Christina  43:07  
And you can see how much support you have.

Roma Torre  43:10  
That makes all the difference. It really does. It really is. And from the younger, the 
younger folks as well, honestly, there have been so many of them say, you know, we get 
it, we totally get it. And we are not out to displace anybody. You know, I think so many 
of the younger women that we work with are extremely talented. And, you know, they 
deserve to do what they're doing. We're just saying don't take us out and put them in a 
place. But let us share the space right now.

Nicole Christina  43:38  
is an intergenerational model of we all have something to contribute

Kristen Bush  43:42  
and we can all learn from each other.

Nicole Christina  43:44  
Right, exactly. Well, I am hoping that you are all staying healthy and well and as rested 
as you can. I know it must be really exhausting reporting being a reporter right now and 
We appreciate you doing that. Well, thank you so much for taking time out, to speak with 
me and, and help us understand what's going on and actually, you know, allowing us to 
root for you and support you as well. We appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you, Nicole.

Roma Torre  44:17  
Yeah, we totally.

Nicole Christina  44:20  
Thank you so much for joining us on zestful aging. If you like the podcast, please share 
it with some of your friends. I love to hear from my listeners, send me an email at 
Nicole christina.com. In this phase of our lives, we're more aware that our time is 
precious, and we certainly don't want to waste it. Taking care of stuff that we no longer 
need leftover from a life that we are no longer living. We know we would feel better with 
less clutter and more open space, but we don't know how to get there. If this sounds 
familiar, I'd love you to check it out. The online course I've developed with 
professional organizer and designer Carrie Lutheran. This course is different than others 
who may have tried because we give you clear steps to deal with the clutter and tools to 
help you face the overwhelm and feelings that come up when you're going through your 
clutter. It's practical and realistic, and the lessons are short and punchy and very 
manageable, but it has the power to change your life. We all deserve to live in a 
peaceful home without the chaos of too much stuff. Find out more at Nicole christina.com. 
And stay tuned next week for another interview with a fascinating and inspiring guest.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

​____________________________________________________________________________________

March 21, 2020 -- Adrienne Martini: “Somebody’s Gotta Do It: Why Cursing at the News Won’t Save the Nation, but Your Name on a Local Ballot Can”

Here’s another episode to celebrate Women’s History Month:

Adrienne Martini is an award winning writer and college professor whose brand new book “Somebody’s Gotta Do It: Why Cursing at the News Won’t Save the Nation, but Your Name on a Local Ballot Can” is getting national attention. In fact, Hillary Clinton recently tweeted about it!

The New York Times writes: “This is not your standard focus-group-approved politician fare; it’s an honest, in-the-moment, firsthand account of a disappointed mother’s foray into local politics.”

Find out more about Adrienne, her work, her dogs and her knitting at martinimade.com.

Transcription

Adrienne Martini  0:00  
running for political office when you are not a political person, or don't see yourself 
that way you don't know the process. One of the big things I realized that action is 
better than simply being angry and anxious. It was something to channel that energy into, 
I realized that I can do things that look completely impenetrable from the outside.

Nicole Christina  0:36  
Welcome to zestful aging where I interview thoughtful, inspiring and influential guests 
who are changing the way we think about what is possible in our lives, especially as we 
age. I'm your host, Nicole, Christina, psychotherapist and fellow zestful ager and I love 
to hear from my listeners, so leave me a comment on zestful aging. dot com. Our music is 
courtesy of Judy banker who was also a guest on zestful. Aging. It's off of her seedy 
buffalo motel. You can find out more about Judy on her website, Judy banker.com. Well, 
I've got my loyal jack Russell Sparky napping right beside me. So let's begin. I am 
really excited about our interview today. Sometimes we find ourselves doing things we 
never imagined as we grow older. And today's guest found yourself in this very position. 
We're speaking with Adrian Martini who's an award winning writer and college professor 
whose brand new book somebody's got to do it why cursing at the news won't save the 
nation, but your name on a local ballot can. It's getting national attention. And the New 
York Times writes this is not your standard focus groups. approved politician fair. It's 
an honest in the moment firsthand account of a disappointed mother's foray into local 
politics.

Adrienne Martini  2:10  
Welcome, Adrian. Thank you for having me, Nicole.

Nicole Christina  2:14  
Um, that was quite a mouthful right there.

Adrienne Martini  2:18  
Even the title is like, you got to take a breath. I know heart. I know. That's a funny 
thing about writing books. So sometimes they go through six or seven different titles, 
and I think this had no fewer

Nicole Christina  2:30  
than about 17. But that's the one lowliness thought captured at the best. It sure does. 
And I just want to start off, I saw on Twitter that you're getting some really, the 
higher ups are reading your book. Do you want to talk about what it was like to discover 
that Hillary Clinton was tweeting about your book? Oh, well, I mean, it's hard to even 
describe somebody had pointed it out to me on Facebook. I immediately did not believe 
them so I went to Twitter and looked for myself and once I saw it

Adrienne Martini  3:10  
Gosh, I think shock would be to kind of words

I think I just sat there with my mouth hanging open um,

Nicole Christina  3:21  
I wire in is here you're talking about like really ground level politics and here is this 
you know not ground level.

Oh, she's

the least groundless ground level um,

Adrienne Martini  3:35  
yeah, I actually I was doing actual work because I have some deadlines at work coming up 
and had to really just tell everybody in the office, I'm leaving for the day because I 
cannot possibly focus on anything other than the fact that my book was mentioned by 
Hillary Clinton. So

Nicole Christina  3:52  
Wow, wow, what what a moment that must have been pinch me.

Adrienne Martini  3:57  
Like it really was.

Nicole Christina  4:00  
So you've been living and working in upstate New York for a little while. Is that is that 
right?

Adrienne Martini  4:06  
That is correct. Mm hmm. And

Nicole Christina  4:09  
tell me about how, how you got to the point where you said, you know, I'm just feeling 
really frustrated and I want to do something about it. I want to run for all

Adrienne Martini  4:23  
right, take us through that process. Right. So we live in Oneonta, which is a small town. 
There is a Sunni school here and Sunni for those who aren't in New York is the State 
University of New York system of colleges. My husband and I moved here about 17 years 
ago. He teaches in the theatre department and I taught in communications and in the 
theater department. I wound up getting involved in local politics. Like it turns out a 
lot of women did after the 26 16 presidential election, which after the election, I kind 
of was most angry about results. But I also realized how kind of divorced I felt from the 
entire political process. And that was a new feeling to me. So I call by local, 
democratic Democratic Party, because I have always espoused their ideals and mentioned 
that I wanted to get involved because I realized how much politics had an impact on my 
day to day life. What I figured they'd say was, well, here's how you can get involved. We 
want you to make phone calls, or we want you to write a check or something, you know, 
along those lines, and those were the things I was prepared to do. And then the gentleman 
who was in charge at the time, invited me over to his house He lives just around the 
corner. And we sat and had a cup of coffee and he asked if I had ever thought about 
running for political office. And my honest response to that was no, no, not at all. Why 
would I think that? And slowly over time, I realized that I had thoughts about running 
for political office after he explained that it was a county board seat, and that the 
person currently in the office was an incumbent and that if we could get enough Democrats 
on the board, we could maybe have a little bit more say in what the county was choosing 
to do.

Nicole Christina  6:38  
So in this is that to say that Oneonta is more of a Republican.

Adrienne Martini  6:45  
County is so I'd say go county is an upstate New York and upstate New York is very 
Republican. It's very conservative. The reason that New York State always goes blue on 
you know, National Election Day. maps is because of New York City and all of the counties 
around New York City. But New York is really big state. You know, you can, if you live in 
western New York, you're really much closer to Cleveland. If you live in what they call 
the North Country, you're really close to Canada. So, you know, it's a giant state and 
the counties that are not around New York City tend to go republican and segoe county 
which is where Oneonta is is no exception. hmm yeah. And they County Board has been under 
republican control for

I think there's only four years where it was under democratic control.

Nicole Christina  7:42  
So you knew this going in? It's not like you thought you might be welcome to the full 
although there Yeah.

Adrienne Martini  7:49  
Yeah. I had no illusions. None whatsoever. There wasn't actually even a woman on the 
county board until I think the late 1990s so Wow, yeah, this is not a swinging hotbed of 
liberalism. You know, it's it's pretty conservative. And it's pretty Jew.

Nicole Christina  8:08  
I'm sorry, had you felt that as you've you know, I know you have at least one child you 
felt that raising your family that you're a bit a fish out of water? Not

Adrienne Martini  8:21  
particularly because I have two children. One is just, you know, set the record that I 
don't want the second child to not that he'll ever listen to this to feel left out 
because He cares more about video games, of course then what his mom does, sure. I never 
felt that because we live in Oneonta which is not big by any stretch of the imagination, 
but there are two colleges here. And that really skews kind of the culture of the city. 
But when you get out more into the the more rural parts of the county, yeah, I mean, 
yeah, you do feel kind of out of place. If you're Not if you didn't grow up here.

Nicole Christina  9:03  
So you knew going in this was gonna be I don't know, I don't want to put words in your 
mouth but you knew it wasn't gonna be, you know, necessarily a welcome welcoming, warm 
and fuzzy. Yeah. Come and join us. They'll just

Adrienne Martini  9:21  
will make the world beautiful.

Nicole Christina  9:24  
Yes, that's not what the news you knew it from the from the

Adrienne Martini  9:28  
right I knew from the outset that a I was up against a Republican who grew up here. It's 
always it wasn't he was an incumbent and he was a he. So that was Those were all strikes 
against me however, I also knew looking at kind of the voter registration for the 
district I was running in that it was overwhelmingly registered democrats so that it was 
a certainly a flippable seat and had been held by a democratic woman. Before, it just 
hadn't been recently. But I knew going in I had pretty much a 5050 shot of winning the 
seat and on election Eve at the watch party that we had at a local bar, because that's 
how you do it in rural New York. You know, even just walking into that, I was like, you 
know, I don't know how this is gonna turn out, I either now get to take a nice long nap, 
because the whole election process will be over. Or I'm about to have a whole new set of 
problems if I actually get elected.

Nicole Christina  10:36  
Right. And, you know, I,

Adrienne Martini  10:39  
you know, I've done everything

I could possibly do to win but now it's not up to me like it, you know, it's out of my 
hands at this point. So

Nicole Christina  10:46  
what was the experience like for you as a, as a newcomer, as somebody who, you know, is 
living in an area that you know, you said was flippable, but you didn't know I mean, what 
is Like for a middle a right mom Professor right hadn't been involved in politics dog 
lover knitter and and all this

Adrienne Martini  11:10  
you know, here you know it's a it's a whole different world it is it is it is a whole 
different world. I also just you know, just not to you know toot my own horn but I had 
not been professing for some time I moved into our colleges alumni office where I write 
and edit the alumni magazine.

But

it's weird. I mean, it's decidedly weird to be in your you know, I can see 50 pretty well 
from here with two older kids suddenly deciding to take on this entirely new adventure.

Nicole Christina  11:50  
Is that who you are, Adrian Are you a woman who takes on adventures is

Adrienne Martini  11:56  
how you I take on achieve you know, things that are Just like slightly in front of my 
grasp, like so my second book was about knitting a really complicated sweater that was 
just outside of my skill set, but it was achievable. And even if I didn't achieve it the 
worst that would happen is I would start with a pile of yarn and with a pile of yarn like 
the the worst case scenario wasn't really that bad.

Nicole Christina  12:27  
It's not high risk. It's

Adrienne Martini  12:28  
not high risk. Nydia I don't know that there's any high risk

but it was certainly not it this felt a little bit more high risk because lately it's 
really felt like the state of the Republic is hinting on some you know, singeing on 
everything, but it also it but it wasn't that high of a risk, you know, if it go county 
stays a red County, which it did, even after I was elected. It's not the end of the 
world. Like you know, of course, I thought that I I would do a better job in the seat 
than the incumbent was doing. But he's a reasonable guy. Like it's it's, the world would 
not have ended. So it wasn't, you know, it was a reasonable risk.

Nicole Christina  13:12  
Hi everyone. It's no secret that everyone's feeling pretty restless and unsettled right 
now. Our lives are upside down and the future is feeling pretty uncertain. But if you're 
anything like me, organizing my stuff can help me feel a little calmer. It's something I 
can do to help me feel a little more in control and in charge of my own life. If you 
think decluttering could help you feel better and you could use a little assistance with 
that, check out the online course I've developed with professional organizer and designer 
Carrie Lutheran, it's called too much stuff. And too much stuff is different from other 
courses or articles or guidance you may have have used, we give you clear steps to deal 
with the clutter and the tools to help you face the overwhelming feelings and the 
emotions that come up when we're going through our clutter and a lot of those emotions 
are just feeling anxious or guilty or just basically flooded with a lot of different 
confusing feelings. The course is really practical, it's realistic. The lessons are short 
and punchy. And they're really manageable. We're not trying to set you up for some long 
exploratory, you know, super in depth, burdensome experience, we want something really 
helpful for you right now. We all need help with our anxiety. So being surrounded by more 
calm and less chaos can really help. So now's a good time to clear out the clutter. So we 
can focus on what's really important in our lives. So find out more successful aging 
calm. You'll see more about this under the web Courses tab. If you have any questions, 
just shoot me an email at zestful aging@gmail.com. Thanks so much. One of the things that 
I really wonder about in terms of running for political office or being more involved 
than the average citizen is, is how do you navigate people who are rabid? I'm just gonna, 
I'm just gonna say it rabid Trump supporters saying things that are, at best nonsensical 
right, and really feeling strongly about that. And I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say 
is I don't know whether I'd be able to stay calm and rational right? Because there would 
just, you know, it's a, it's a different world out there now

it is and

how do you how do you talk to people whose opinions you feel don't hold up to reason or 
the values that you hold? Right.

Adrienne Martini  16:22  
So one of the ways to do that is find the places where you agree. And I think the place 
where we all can agree is, you know, I love my kids, I love my grandchildren. I want 
what's best for this country. I Gosh, I like having my I would like green spaces to stay 
green, and watersheds to be blue. Like those are the things we can agree on. I think it's 
better if it's six, I want to be safe. I want to be safe. I want to be warm and dry when 
it's cold and wet outside. So like you find the things where you agree Humanity, shared 
humanity of all of us and then try and branch out from there as best you can. When you 
get to the some of the things that are just okay, I do want to start by saying I think 
90% of the people that you come into contact with, even if you don't agree, they are 
reasonable people. It's the the fringe on the 10% when you get into that weird area where 
you're like, we don't even share a reality is

Nicole Christina  17:28  
like classes,

Adrienne Martini  17:30  
like climate deniers and you know, people who,

you know, think that Trump is is

perfection, you know, who anything he says must clearly be the truth because why would he 
lie like, that is a small, small percentage. Okay? And you can't really, you know, 
there's no arguing like you're, it's like anybody else in a cult, you know, you can't 
really get them out of the cult unless they want to leave And nothing you say is going to 
change any of that. And you're just exhausting everybody. You know, it's like, yes, you 
believe that? Wow, I do not. Good luck.

Nicole Christina  18:13  
And you feel like you, did you get better at preserving your energy in terms of like, Who 
am I going to have a real debate with it? How does that work? Because that is are those 
skills that you build?

Adrienne Martini  18:29  
Right? So some of that are skills that you build, and I built them through teaching in a 
college

you know, it's different. Yeah. But, you know, you have in college students come up and, 
you know, sometimes try and convince you of things that that make no sense at all. I 
shouldn't have to turn this paper in because my grandmother who I told you had died last 
week, Oh, she seems to have died again. You know, like that kind of, um, and you just get 
used to holding line when somebody is trying to sell you a clearly not realistic version 
of reality

Nicole Christina  19:08  
and you have a teenager. Well, yes.

Adrienne Martini  19:11  
And I didn't know at the time, but yes, it's wonderful trading as having toddlers where 
you're just like, okay, we're not negotiating with terrorists. Okay, this is not okay. So 
I think parenting really is great training. But I also think it's important that I 
infrequently come into contact with the real staunch Trump supporters, I don't know. 
Which isn't to say that I don't come into contact with with people who disagree with me, 
but not but we can usually find some kind of overlap. And I think that's different when 
you're working on a local level, because you're working mostly face to face. And I think 
people are less inclined to be extremely right in your face

Nicole Christina  20:02  
both ways that's a good yeah, that's an interesting point. And some of these folks you 
probably run into the grocery store the gas station Yes. Yes they know you

Adrienne Martini  20:13  
Yeah. And it's it's sometimes hard to get in my children. Well my son hates going to the 
grocery store period so he will never come with me but my daughter likes to come with me 
and we frequently get you know, stopped in the produce aisle as you're trying to pick out 
lettuce by you know, somebody who wants to talk about whatever topic is is on their mind 
and that's fine. You know, I don't like it when they want to stop and talk after I've 
taken the ice cream out of the cooler because I want it to melt but

Nicole Christina  20:39  
right.

Adrienne Martini  20:41  
Mostly fine, you know it. Nothing in my life is really that that vital. Five minutes 
here, there is not going to make or break my day. So I'm happy to talk.

Nicole Christina  20:53  
More people in your life supportive of you running your husband, your family. Yeah. Um,

Adrienne Martini  21:00  
for the most part, um, I didn't come across anybody who, who really said, Wow, I do not 
support this. I think my husband had concerns about how polarized climate is right now. 
But once I really was in it, he realized that, you know, again, what you see nationally 
is not what you see locally. And we had financial concerns, because we didn't want to 
sink a ton of money into it. But I had to realizations pretty quickly, which was, it's 
relatively cheap to run for local office. I mean, you can do it for a couple of hundred 
bucks. Yeah, you know, some yard signs, flyer or two. And, really, that's pretty much all 
you need. And then you go door to door and door to door. It's more time that you're using 
them in money and given again, political climate after the election of 2016 people were 
looking for causes to donate money to. And this election, at least in this part of the 
world, was the next big thing that they could. Because this was a the election was in 
2017. Our local elections are always on the off off presidential years. So fundraising 
was relatively easy. So you know, that those were our biggest concerns, which is we don't 
want to deplete the kids college accounts. on something that might be completely few 
times. But once you really sit down and look at the numbers, it's really not that 
comparatively, it's not that much money.

Nicole Christina  22:45  
Would you say that you're a different person now? Oh, definitely come through this.

Adrienne Martini  22:51  
Oh, always. Definitely. Um, you know, you I realized, I realized a couple of things. So 
like one of the biggest I realized that action is better than simply being angry and 
anxious.

It was something to channel that energy into.

I realized that I can do things that look completely impenetrable from the outside, like 
running for political office when you are not a political person, or don't see yourself 
that way. You don't know the process beyond just voting. Like you don't know how to get 
on a ballot and you don't know the issues facing you. These are all things that can be 
learned, if you're willing to just learn them. And it's not hard. It's not quantum 
physics. It's just a matter of sitting down. And reading and reading and

Nicole Christina  23:45  
also rules.

Adrienne Martini  23:46  
Yeah, reading the rules. Being willing, the thing I really learned, especially once I was 
in office, was being willing to ask questions that make you look like you don't know 
what's going on because you don't know what's going on. Like, if you don't know how 
something works, you have to ask somebody who has worked in this field for, you know, 40 
years, but you have to be willing to say, I don't know what you're talking about. You 
know? And then once you get that answer, then being you have enough knowledge to then ask 
the next stupid question like you just continuously are figuring out the next really dim 
question to us and being willing to be a beginner at that. Once you've had, you know, 
some years of not being the beginner at things can be really hard, but you have to do it 
otherwise, you're never going to understand what it is you're trying to do.

Nicole Christina  24:42  
Did you have any mentors that wanted to show you the ropes, um, the

Adrienne Martini  24:47  
biggest supporter that I had and was a woman here in town named Kim Muller, who was the 
second woman ever elected to the board. The county board. And she was then mayor of 
Oneonta for a few years after the fact, and I wouldn't say that she was a mentor so much 
as every now and again, I would either email her show or show up on her porch. Because 
she just lives around the corner and say, I have no idea what's going on. And she would 
just kind of give me the easiest explanation of the easiest way to do a thing very 
succinctly and then kind of just sent me on my way. Like, you got this, but you're gonna 
have to do it yourself, you know.

And that was huge. That was huge.

But, you know, having the support of my family having every now and again, like a friend 
would email just at the right time when I was feeling a little despondent, saying, well, 
this is a big thing you're doing I'm glad you're doing it.

Nicole Christina  25:56  
And then you decide when did in this process did you decide to write this Book. Yeah,

Adrienne Martini  26:00  
so the book came later. That was about, I don't know, six months to a year into my term, 
when I realized that I had accumulated all of this just practical knowledge. And figured 
that if I could do it, really anyone could, and that this would save them a step. Because 
some of the advice I got was just plain wrong. Or it was wrong. It was right 20 years 
ago, but it's not how it works now. Hmm. And I felt like I needed to get all of this down 
so that the next person could do it, you know, learn from my mistakes and then build on 
them.

Nicole Christina  26:41  
Was there any sort of sense that you could have power in your current role, but you could 
have even more influence if you wrote a book was there like, a strategy or a calculation 
like I'm I'm really feeling good about This, let me take it a step further.

Adrienne Martini  27:02  
Not really, because

we don't have that much power to begin with.

It's not like I was I could leverage this into, you know, something really big. And that 
was never my intention. As will become clear, either through talking with me or reading 
the book strategy is not one of my stronger suits. It really was more. Gosh, this is kind 
of a fun and funny story. Here's some advice. Here's what local government actually does 
that you don't actually think about. And that we're all focused on state and federal 
races, when really you should be thinking about your local races because those are the 
offices that have the most influence on how your day is, how your day begins and how your 
day ends, frankly,

Nicole Christina  27:51  
so there's this there's this mix of being an activist but also being a writer, and a 
writer who loves it. Yes, funny story. I love

a good story. sarcasm. Yeah,

so sort of this like, it's different than I'm gonna write the guidebook for women. Right 
take but it's it wasn't that it was like, Oh, let me write this this story and maybe 
somebody else will, you know be helped by right, right? Yeah,

Adrienne Martini  28:21  
yeah, so almost You know, I've written three books now but I also am a freelance writer 
and I kind of write about running, you know, I write about a little bit of everything. 
And it's usually the story starts with, hey, let me tell you about this really foolish 
thing I did. Isn't this funny? But here's the lesson I took from this what could have 
been a catastrophic failure? You know, it's like, we all I think people like to I know, I 
certainly like to read that story, but also, you're gonna mess things up a lot more 
frequently than you You are a unqualified success. So you might as well figure out how To 
learn, I guess.

Nicole Christina  29:03  
So the theme running through this is humility. Very important. Yes.

Adrienne Martini  29:07  
Yes. And every time when I think that Oh, yeah, no, I really understand what's going on. 
Something comes along to remind me that No, in fact, I do not.

Nicole Christina  29:18  
I know you're a huge dog fan. I am you think sort of watching your dog. Your dogs enjoy 
their lives helps keep you grounded. Oh,

Adrienne Martini  29:29  
yes. And I also am always jealous of my dogs.

Because I really wish that I could spend my whole day just sleeping in bed. patches of 
sun Yes. Or in my own bed or on the couch.

Yes, I too could learn to just really take all of my my joy in life from a half empty jar 
of peanut butter, you know, like

Nicole Christina  29:57  
a woman of simple knee right? Yes. Oh, Here's what I say.

Yeah, there's something dead in the backyard. Perhaps my joy will be rolling in it, you 
know, like, Okay. That's right. Yeah, I always say, my, my dog Sparky is in my 
psychotherapy sessions most of the day. So he's pretty much never alone, right? 
constantly being petted and, you know, my refrain is everybody wants sparkies life.

Adrienne Martini  30:22  
Yes. You know, he's, yeah, yeah, no, it wouldn't be awful. It wouldn't be

Nicole Christina  30:28  
for nothing.

Adrienne Martini  30:28  
Yeah, I actually, after I had my first child, I found myself in therapy, which is another 
long story. But I recommend everybody go to therapy, even if you haven't just had a baby. 
But that therapist had a giant boxer and he would come over and he would just put his 
head in your lap and just kind of look up what you like. You know what you'll have eaten 
today and that is pretty good. I too, like eating. So if you would like to get up and get 
me a slice of lunch meat out of the fridge, we will both be happy. So

Yeah,

Nicole Christina  31:02  
I am convinced that many of my clients really come to see the dog.

Yeah. You know what, particularly the adolescent Yes.

Adrienne Martini  31:10  
So that's 100%. Okay.

Nicole Christina  31:14  
Yep. That's, that's so the truer words have never been.

So talk, talk to me about, you know, wait. As we said earlier there, there are a lot of 
people listening in around other countries and just talk generally about what might be 
the first step in getting involved in their local politics just to try out and to see if 
that might be something that they feel good about. Because as we know, as you're looking 
at 50, many women are feeling like, well, now what do I do? Right?

Adrienne Martini  31:56  
Right. So there are a couple of ways to go about it. I can really speak to the US, but I 
would imagine that most other countries are organized in a similar fashion. The first 
thing you need to do is to figure out which local governments who you're voting for when 
you're voting for those offices full of names that you don't think you know. So look at 
the ballot and figure out okay, so there's an office here labeled Board of 
representatives. Yeah. What is that? Why am I voting for this? So the first step is 
really just figuring out which the names of the local offices around you because they're 
all different every county in in the United States, and I'm sure every county in all the 
provinces in Canada, no matter where you are, they label their offices just a little bit 
differently. But usually what you have is people in your city, representing you on the 
city government, people in your county representing you on that county government. Or 
parish or township or whatever it's called. And then it starts to build up from there. So 
figure out which offices those are, and find the person who's holding them and just talk 
to them, like call them up or email them. There. That is their job, their job is to talk 
to you, because they are representing you. And if they want your vote in a year or 
whenever the next election is, you know, they have to talk to their constituents. And if 
you're not getting answered, if you're not getting a, a, if you don't get an answer, 
well, there's a that tells you something right there. And be if you don't like the 
answers you're getting, well maybe think about running against them. And if you're not 
willing, or in a place where you could run against them, figure out who is and lend them 
your time, because time is a really valuable resource. Hmm. And I I will tell you now 
that a good volunteer is is worth their weight in any valuable material you can think.

Nicole Christina  34:07  
Oh hair,

Adrienne Martini  34:08  
yes, Mo hair, you know the finest of cashmere yarn. Yes.

And even if you as a volunteer are not comfortable knocking on doors, which is fine, it's 
not my favorite thing to do, but I've made a certain peace with it. You also have other 
skills that you could probably offer. Like, if you're really organized, you can organize 
all of their maps as they figure out whose doors they need to knock on, you can figure 
out how to balance their checkbook. Like there are always things that need to be done.

Nicole Christina  34:38  
Hmm. Okay, that I think that's great advice, because you're right. I mean, we look at the 
ballot, some of us will vote straight, you know, party. Yeah, and But really, the truth 
is that we don't always know what we're voting for. And sounds like a quick Google search 
might be really helpful. And just the confidence to say, I could put my toe in this. I 
don't have to, you know, start making ads that are running TV. No. Yeah. Yeah, that's 
that's great advice. And this idea, I think is so important of action, you know, no 
action is the shortcut to depression. Yes. And at least taking some action and feeling 
like okay, I'm not, you know, changing the world right now today, but I am contributing 
to that change. And I agree with you, I think that is a very much more powerful place to 
be it is it definitely is, you're not a passive participant. Like, you know,

Adrienne Martini  35:45  
things are going to happen regardless of whether or not you're you're involved in them. 
So you might as well be involved with them and try and shape the outcome.

Nicole Christina  35:55  
So where can we learn more about you and the book and All things, Adrian. Yeah.

Adrienne Martini  36:02  
Um, so I think the

easiest place and where what I've tried to make the catch all place is I do have a 
website. And it's Martini made. So it's ma RTI, ni m a d.com. And there are links to the 
book, and they're links to other books and other writing that I've done. And as reviews 
for the book are coming out, you know, and I'm putting them there. So, there's also 
contact information if you want to send me an email. So yeah, I think that would probably 
probably be the easiest, easiest way to get in touch and learn more.

Nicole Christina  36:39  
That sounds great. Well, I really appreciate you spending time with me today, Adrian and 
and talking about this with us because I think that it's not on a lot of people's radar. 
It's an overwhelming process. I think many of us feel very emotional about And that it's 
just like, it's just this is too big for me, I think I'm gonna go take my dog for right 
instead, right, you know, but that there are little, little parts of us that we can own 
and we can contribute. And that's a very different mindset than just staying in our house 
and you know, maybe eating sweets,

Adrienne Martini  37:22  
right? Well, I'm not saying you shouldn't do that. But Brian, maybe balance it with 
taking concrete action

Nicole Christina  37:28  
act. I love that. That's great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for 
joining us on zestful aging. If you like the podcast, please share it with some of your 
friends. I love to hear from my listeners, send me an email at Nicole christina.com. In 
this phase of our lives, we're more aware that our time is precious and we certainly 
don't want to waste it, taking care of stuff that we no longer need. leftover from a life 
that we are no longer living. We know we would feel better with less clutter and more 
open space, but we don't know how to get there. If this sounds familiar, I'd love you to 
check out the online course I've developed with professional organizer and designer carry 
Lutheran. This course is different than others who may have tried because we give you 
clear steps to deal with the clutter and tools to help you face the overwhelm and 
feelings that come up when you're going through your clutter. It's practical and 
realistic, and the lessons are short and punchy and very manageable, but it has the power 
to change your life. We all deserve to live in a peaceful home without the chaos of too 
much stuff. Find out more at Nicole christina.com And stay tuned next week for another 
interview with a fascinating and inspiring guest.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai